Fain Will NOT Be the Dark One

Posted by Kolys on 21.01.01 00:00

Just an idea, and the will to fly in the face of this now-accepted, yet baseless, assertion.

Why will there be a new Dark One next Age? I agree that there are many things to suggest that Fain is developing some odd talents, but there's a lot of ground to cover between that and replacing Shai'tan. And the Dark One didn't get replaced the last Age, so why this one? If you remember, right there in the prologue to The Eye of the World, when Ishamael does that really cool type of Traveling that nobody else can do, he yells at Lews Therin Telamon, something like "Shai'tan take you, does the taint already have you so far in its grip?" and Lews Therin remembers that it's dangerous to say that name, just as folks reckon even today.

So unless we get a new Dark One (and a new Creator?) at the end of each Third Age, then I don't see how Fain can be the next Dark One. And if a new Dark One is created every Third Age, why is it the *Third* Age? Surely the Creation, and the first imprisonment of the Dark One, and all the other mytho-historical stuff should be either First Age, or before Time officially began.

wotmania says: I am not positive there will be a new Dark One after the Last Battle, but it is an interesting idea... I do not believe that anyone thinks there is a new Dark One every Age, but I think there are logical arguments for a new Dark One with every turning of the Wheel. In any event, I just think this is an interesting line of argument...



Posted by Onarishma on 11.06.01 02:13
I don't truly know about this whole fain deal either but Im not sure all the theories are making fain into a god they are just making him the spreader of man made evil. Antd the other thing is i agree with you, i think. The "third age" is completly arbitrary cause if you can't remember what happened two ages a go how do you even know there are seven maybe their are eight sometimes or maybe there aren't any and it just so happens that history is doomed to repeat itself(sometimes in an orderly manner sort of like fashion being recycled every 20 years god i hate headbands only the darkone could be worse.

Where did these Skimmers come from? I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author. Why risk arriving at the wrong destination? Why risk falling into darkness?


Posted by Rathan on 16.06.01 18:52
I agree, because I remember reading (somewhere) that the DO's Power is inimcal to the SL evil in Fain now. So, if Fain became the new DO, he would probably gain all of the DO's powers. That would probably be bad for him, because of the SL evil in him now.

p.s. SL is Shadar Logoth, for those numbskulls who hadn't figured that out.


Totally agree

Posted by TwoRiversMat on 03.05.02 17:38
The whole point of the Last Battle is to decide once and for all what will happen. Rand and his pals win, then life goes on without the Dark One. I also think Fain will finally die in the Last Battle. Don't know who will kill him, but I would sure love the chance .

Fain: Mutation or Rewoven Thread?

Posted by LogainAblar666 on 19.05.02 18:49
Fain is one of the most interesting and confusing characters in the series. We really have not gotten much more than factual information about what has happened to him thus far and there has been no mention of anyone like him in a previous Age. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if he were someone like Slayer who the main protagonists have not had much contact with, yet Fain is a major player in the main plot. He seriously wounded Rand, he whacked two asha'man in Far Madding and he's been running around with a mysterious and powerful dagger with ties to both the Forsaken (Aginor in particular) and the protagonists (Mat and Rand in particular) And if everything he did before Winter's Heart weren't enough, now he appears to be gaining strange powers, unlike anything we have witnessed before except for the True Power, yet his mutual hatred for the Shadow would leave this as an unlikely option. (for those who don't know or remember what I'm talking about here is the quote from when Rand and Lan encounter Fain in Far Madding, "With a smile {Fain} raised his free hand. Torval and Gedwyn came up the stairs with their cloakcs over their arms... "Without thought, rand twisted his wrists in Cutting the Wind and immediately followed with Unfolding the Fan. The illusion of dead men come back to life vanished, and Fain leaped back with a shriekd, blood straming down the side of his face" What I am speculating is that Fain is a character the likes of which the Weave has not seen for a very long time (or perhaps never) He is the product of the tainted ways, Mashadar, Mordeth, the Dark One and the ruby hilted dagger. He is an amalgamation of hatred and mistrust who's origins are well known and yet his purpose is not. What I am proposing is that the reason his purpose is not known is because nothing like him has ever existed before, or if it has than the memory of it has faded completely.

I agree that Fain will not replace the Dark One because

Posted by didionite on 12.09.02 13:04
there is only One Dark One. That's it. And, despite lots of speculating, I don't think it would be possible to kill the Dark One. The Dark One is a fundamental component of the Pattern. He was sealed away by the Creator at the moment of creation, right? If the Creator could/would only seal the DO away, what makes anyone think Rand or Fain or anyone else be able to kill him? Plus, there's never been any mention of killing the DO. Defeating, yes. Repairing the Bore, i.e., sealing the DO away, yes. Killing, no.

I need a nap.

Never heard

Posted by wheeloftimefan on 27.02.04 15:16
of Fain becoming the DO... Where do these people come up with this? wheeloftimefan

Just another post by
SN J-Whitt USN


Never heard

Posted by wheeloftimefan on 27.02.04 15:16
of Fain becoming the DO... Where do these people come up with this? wheeloftimefan

Just another post by
SN J-Whitt USN


third age?

Posted by shaidar haran90 on 09.03.04 17:10
"So unless we get a new Dark One (and a new Creator?) at the end of each Third Age, then I don't see how Fain can be the next Dark One. And if a new Dark One is created every Third Age, why is it the *Third* Age? Surely the Creation, and the first imprisonment of the Dark One, and all the other mytho-historical stuff should be either First Age, or before Time officially began. " i thought in either WH or CoS it said it had moved on to the Fourth Age. Alright.

Fain can't be the Dark One later, he's something completely new and that's one of the reasons why TG will literally be the last battle. either that or the wheel is veeery slow, in which case i think that the whole thing with rand being the lews therin of this wheel-turning is false. if its been the third age for so long, i think the age of legends might have just been the first age of this wheel since there are so many differences between the two dragons.

Here is My Take

Posted by Warlord_Griffin on 15.03.04 20:34
Ok fain becoming new dark one definetly not

Fain is on the other hand the light getting back at the dark

Think about it RJ has had lots of essentially good people be used by the Dark One to give the Light one hell of headache. Payback is you know what and its name is Padan Fain, I mean, what has he done bad for the characters. Ok now you are saying , "he stole the bloody dagger and Horn of Valera," He brought Rand to Toman Head which allowed him to confront Ishamael, prove he is the dragon, free Egwene, Nyevea, and Elayne and give Mat a chance to blow the Horn of Valera before some Aes Sedai flunky could. Ok, now you are saying, "He has been out to kill Rand since day one." He has but is too weak to succeed because as we have seen even with the dagger he cannot fight the one power directly and his wound in Rand's side helped him figure out how to deal with the Taint and is helping to hold the dark one's taint at bay by fighting it. Also, his mission is to stop anyone except himself from taking Rand out. So probably he will attack even the dark one to take Rand out himself screeming, "my precious," whoops wrong story. Finally you say, "he has been a high ranking darkfriend and spotted Rand for the shadowspawn." Good argument but again, all it did to Rand, Mat, and Perrin was piss them off and give them something to fight for. Ok I am being an unemotional bastard about the true evilness of Padan and yes folks, I do believe he should be wiped out of existence, but, many people hold the same view of spies and espionage by other countries. Only problem, everyone and I mean everyone uses them, it is just when they get caught do problems arise.


Posted by Joiya00 on 22.10.04 10:42
I always thought the people who said Fain would be the new Dark One had just been playing too much FFX.

And I'm kinda uncomfortable with the idea that this is really the *Last Battle*. Is that even possible? It seems to me that in the world RJ has created, there needs to be a primary source for both good and evil. The WoT world is, after all, defined by equal and opposing forces. So wouldn't the destruction of the DO just mean the end of the world?


Under the light I vow to speak no word that is not true

Well. . . Maybe. . if. .

Posted by troubledfaith on 05.04.05 15:56
I'm not saying that agree with the whole Padan becoming the Dark One Theory, I will say it's origibal. Think of this, RJ was said that he came up with the ending before anything else. I believe he said something like " Now wouldn't that be an interesting ending" or something like that in a interview. Plus we all know that WoT and LoTr has the habit of running the same course (Padan/Gollum etc.)
Not look at it like this, lets say RJ was reading RIngs, and all the sudden, "What if Gollum got the ring and turned him into the next Dark Lord?" Granted a dark Lord with a dirty halfnaked Butt Flapp Dark Lord but a Dark Lord none the less. I know I know, The DO is all powerful in every age. But, what if hes not, what if the balance is how the people of Randland see him, and not an actual equal to the creator, because he can't be if he was sealed away by the creator. The balance is there cause before fear the DO has much as they love the Creator. Now, we really don't know exactly what is happening to Fain, except that he is becoming the human essense of hate and fear. He brings death to everything and everywhere he goes. And with the soul of Shadar Logoth, he is prolly immortal now too. It seems that what ever is festering in Fain, is just becoming stronger and stronger.

Now, what if Rand did infact kill The DarkOne, he balefired it, whatever.(lord I hope not) In just that insisent, the Pattern will search for something to regain that balance. And then is when Fain will become something more then he was, something very much like the Shadow. The Evil that destroyed SL was something that no man could stop, Aes Sedai almost feared it more then anything of the Shadow, and that of it has something as bad as Balefire. Even the Shadow seemed to fear it.

Before Rand dies, for whatever reason, he is able to trap this "Shadow Fain" into the prison that held the DarkOne, with no bore of course. Rand is dead, balance restored, and the third age comes to an end.
Maybe this happens every third age, maybe that is why they call this the "Final Battle" even when we know there is going to be more fights with the shadow. And Since only Rand and Co. would now the truth, people wouldn't know of Fain, the DarkOne's own name would be past down through the ages. Thom said once that Rand would be lucky if they remebered his name in the next age.
What ever Fain is would continue to hate what Rand is, the Dragon, the Soul that will forever counter the DarkOne. Maybe even Fain would lose his memory of ever ebing human. It would explain why the DO seems to have human emotion like anger.

Like I said, I'm not sure if I believe it, I just like it cause it's original. So I just like it when all possibilities are produced. So flame away guys.

I think there is...

Posted by simperfi on 25.05.05 16:38
a good chance that he will. The creator is considered the essence of all that is good, therefore, the DO should be the essence of all that is evil. But he is not. This is where Fain steps in. He is gathering inside him all the evil of the world which places him as more of an essence of evil than the DO. Yes, the DO is more powerful...right now...but lets see how long that lasts.

my 2 cents

Posted by frizbee35 on 03.10.06 16:47
I think that Fain becoming the dark one is totally plausible, here’s why.
The Dark One has a name Shi’Tan (this bothers me) since the DO has a name it is very easy for me to believe that he was once a man. If there was a religion like Christianity with angels and such, I would believe Shi’Tan to be a “Fallen Angel” type, but there is nothing like that, it’s just the creator (who dose not have a name) and the dark one. It is my belief that at the end of the last turning of the wheel Shi’Tan was a man who was hell bent on distruction and control, pitting himself against the Creator, creation and free will. A hero Similar to Lews Therin Telemon or Rand defeated him, but Shi’Tan was too powerful to be totally destroyed. So with the help of the Creator, said hero sealed him out of the pattern. Which started the new turning of the wheel, knowledge from one age to the next is forgotten relatively easily. So by the age of legends everyone had forgotten about Shi’Tan and his quest for power. When they broke open Shi’Tan’s prison he spilled out all his hate and power and then the war of power.

Now some of you will say that this is a stretch and there are many variations of this idea that cover all of the questions that even I pose to myself but this post is long enough as it is. The main idea is that the dark one is a man and can be killed they just didn’t have the means the last time around (Shadar Logath dagger). I think the Shi’Tan will kill rand, Fain will be outraged and stab the dark one. The dark one thinking himself invincible now that his rival is dead will take the blow and be destroyed. They will then (maybe with the help of the creator) imprison Fain out of the pattern. I think there is a new dark one every turning, but the same power every time someone just has to claim it ( thus the endless meetings between dark one and Dragon)

One by one, the penguins are slowly stealing my sanity

Fain is not going to be the dark one

Posted by Andrious on 10.06.07 01:05
This is quite simple, DO is the embodiment of Evil. He is not like a fallen angel like satan, he is probably the creators little brother be he was a bit weaker so he got imprisioned and tries to break free.

One thing to note: i'm not sure which books this is in, but it's when Rand goes to Shadar Logoth. LTT told Rand that he can sense evil and that if the DO can choose a place to live he will live here. Check it out I think it is in ACoS.

Which shows that Fain will not become the DO because DO is the master of Evil, and everything else that is Evil is his minion. They don't even need to like the DO.

Maybe, maybe not...

Posted by Amak on 06.09.08 10:49
Beeing the first one to mention Padan Fain as a new Dark One ages ago (Haven´t been here for years) I can´t seem to remember my exact points then, but...

First out - It´s a theory, nothing else.

Second. RJ "borrowed" inspiration for this great series from a number of sources, not the least one the norse mythologi.
As a swede and a historyinterested one too, I have read a great deal norse myths.
After the last battle (ie "Ragnarök", the world will rise again. There will be the surviving gods, humanity will once again fill the world AND there will be evil in it too...
A new evil...

So, if Tarmon Gaidon is the LAST last battle, and this string in the story really is inspired from norse mythology, there might very well be a new Dark One.

And who would better fit this role? After all, Padan can´t be in the story just as another "cannonfodder"-personality for Rand to defeat along the way. We have all of the forsaken for that! (Even if they don´t know of it of course...)