Graendal For Certain

Posted by Jeremie on 22.01.01 00:00

This was puzzled out by others, so I take no credit.

It was definitely Graendal; and all of the clues are in the last few chapters of The Fires of Heaven.

When Moghedien is battling Nynaeve, she practically spills out the fact that Rahvin is expecting an attack, and he, along with Graendal are going to surprise him. Moghedien goes on to say something about Lanfear "plays a different game."

Fast-forward to Rand. Rahvin is not a good dreamer (this was mentioned previously), so why would he choose to fight in the World of Dreams? Because he has traps set and he is depending on Graendal’s help. Keep in mind that Rand walks by the pond pursuing Rahvin, and is attacked by fish. Later Rahvin is balefired (thus Mat and Aviendha are back), but Nynaeve still has to Heal Rand of the fish bites. Why? Because Graendal was responsible for the bites, else they would have disappeared with the balefire.

Fast-forward one hour to Asmodean. He is lounging by the "same" pond in the real world. He feels a chill (Graendal opening a gateway) and enters a nearby door which opens into a hallway. (The same door Graendal lurked in the World of Dreams to attack Rand). Graendal recognizes Asmodean and kills him on the spot.

Why didn’t Graendal just go back to Arad Doman? Well, she had to feel Nynaeve’s fire, and feared to leave right away (she may have thought it was Lanfear helping the cause). Or she may have seen Moghedien, and knowing her prowess in the World of Dreams, decided it was too risky to leave a trail for the spider to follow her to her lair. Fearing to channel, she waits about an hour, memorizes the spot, Travels to the real world. She spots Asmodean, kills him, and makes a gateway back to Arad Doman.

wotmania says: Why have I never heard anyone talk about the fish bites before??? Grrr... You realize that now I have to reread that section of the book, then probably rewrite entire sections of this site to clean up this mess... Seriously, thanks for posting this, it is a HUGE piece of evidence that Graendal did it. And I really liked Lanfear as the killer...


Comments

Simply, let me agree...

Posted by Whitefire on 01.04.01 00:00
I just want to add a few words to prove it from myself, the clues I have found (altough I don't doubt others found them too).

First, we have the following from an interview:

Q: Any hints on who killed Asmodean?
JR: The Asmodean question? I've said time and again that there is
enough evidence for you guys to figure out who killed Asmodean.
I have, since Asmodean's death, put in a few more clues. The
evidence is there, if not exactly listed with flaming arrows pointing
to it. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

So it IS there. The possible murderers are:
Graendal, Demandred (whether he is Taim or not), Sammael, Semirhage, Mesaana, Lanfear, Rahvin, Moghedien, Moridin, Shaidar Haran, OTHERS.

Now:
1) Rahvin, Moghedien and Lanfear are either already dead or captured at the moment of Asmodean's death.

2) Asmodean couldn't have recognized Shaidar Haran or Moridin, even if they already existed when he died.

3) As to any OTHERS, there are no clues about them, and we KNOW we have some clues!

4) Why not Demandred: in LoC (p.5 LoC paperback) he says to the Dark One: "Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did", and a bit later he 'thinks': " The Great Lord already seemed to know that Rahvin died. And seemed to know more about Asmodean than he."

5) Why not Sammael: He talks with Graendal and says: "have you learned where Al'Thor is hiding Asmodean? Or any thing about Lanfear's whereabouts? Or Moghedien's?" (G. answers that Rand killed A.); and later: "Al'Thor - al'Thor, Graendal! An ignorant boy, whatever Asmodean manages (*es* - he's still not sure whether to believe G. or not!) to teach him."

6) Why not Semirhage: Here are some of her 'thoughts': "Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished (...)If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving [...] even Asmodean?" Later she asks (p. 190 LoC paperback): "Where is Asmodean?"

7) Why not Mesaana: on page 189 (LoC paperback) Semirhage 'thinks': "More troubling were the Chosen who had vanished. Demandred insisted they must be dead, but she and Mesaana were not so sure." This is not much, but Mesaana, Demandred and Semirhage have worked together since before the War of Power. At that time, Mesaana is very much focused on the plot that ends the volume VI, and on the disappearance of Semirhage.

It leaves only Graendal, doesn't it?
Graendal is the only Forsaken who knows from the beginning for sure that A. is dead. All others doubt it. Also, Graendal says that Rand killed Asmodean, and is quite sure about it, although she knows why Rand needed Asmodean (Lanfear told her). And besides, this lie is very much like her.

JR said that he had placed enough clues, and the above are the only clues, I think.

Well, the rest I leave to your intuition...

Whitefire.

All Rand's injuries in TAR were caused by Rahvin

Posted by saidin7 on 12.04.01 00:00
If you go to the WoT FAQ and look under the section 'Asmodean's killer-' its says that RJ said that Balefire/TAR has strange effects and this explains why not all of Rands wounds disappeared when Rahvin was balefired. So all Rands injuries were caused By Rahvin and theres no evidence that anyone else was helping Rahvin in TAR at the time

fish

Posted by Lord Nazh on 14.04.01 00:00
Was going to explain the fish 'theory' but I see that saidan7 already has... RJ said specifically that Rahvin caused all of rand's injuries in Tel and that balefire had different aspects there...

She did it alright

Posted by MrNiggles on 05.07.01 07:31
It's true that you may not be able to pin the fishes on Graendal, but the only evidence there is points towards her as the culprit...
besides, we have this excerpt to go by:

Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him.
Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.

Note he agrees with the statement. There. Graendal did it. Someone finally got him to admit it. Yay.




That was balefire. It could burn your thread clear out of the pattern. Now, after all this excitement, you're probably wondering... does he have any power left? But the real question is... do you feel lucky? Well, do you, goat-kisser?

Not necessarily

Posted by Lord Savaunt on 13.08.01 11:22
In that same statement RJ is saying that he won't come out and say who killed Asmo. I think he was just overlooking the Graendal comment. I do think Graendal did it, but I won't site that answer as proof.


Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.

Fish bites

Posted by Tuon on 30.09.01 20:09
I had forgotten about the fish bites, and what you say makes a lot of sense. If Rahvin had been responsible for them, they would have vanished when Rand balefired him, but since Nynaeve had to heal them, obviously Rahvin wasn't. You narrow down the suspects. I knew it wasn't Lanfear, Moghedien or Rahvin who killed Asmodean, since they were all otherwise engaged.


Tuon
Daughter of the Nine Moons
Most intelligent of Seanchan

Rand Killed That person

Posted by CH. BHIM SINGH on 03.11.01 07:05
Rand must have oyher wise the dark proficies don't add up

....I like

Posted by Bofh on 02.02.02 00:44
O..k...That makes SO much more sense than ANY other theory I've made up or heard! The only thing I could possibly see that could ruin that is if Graendal did open a gateway into that room why didn't any of the "Aes Sedai" detect her channeling?

More Jordan confirmation and explanations

Posted by TheUltimateReality on 02.02.02 17:53
I read in one of the Jordan interviews that we met the person who killed Asmodean in tFoH and going through the book, eliminating people because of previous books, time, place or death, the conclusion is that either it was Graendal, whom we met at the beginning of the book and who was only referred to in the previous ones, or Bashere, who would have no motive to do it unless he was Demandred. Therefore it has to be Graendal.

And with respect to the others detecting her, we know that Graendal can hide her channeling, look at the battle scene in WH where Cadsuane cannot see her channeling at all. Easy to open a gateway in private without being detected if you can keep your ability masked in a stressful battle situation.


the Harvester of Mankind

the Thief of Years

the Slayer of Worlds

the Ultimate Reality

Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com

Just got done with the end of TFoH

Posted by Windsor on 18.02.02 18:15
this little bit stands out when Nynaeve is talking to Moggy right after her capture:

"Tell me, and I will consider whether it's worth anything," Nynaeve said. What could she
"Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael are plotting together."
Nynaeve gave the leash a short tug, staggering her. "I know that. Tell me something new."
The woman was captive here, but the a ‘dam only existed so long as they were in Tel'aran'rhiod
"Do you know they are drawing Rand al'Thor to attack Sammael? But when he does, he
will find the others as well, waiting to trap him between them. At least, he will find Graendal and
Rahvin. I think Lanfear plays another game, one the others know nothing about."


This little bit in particular: "At least, he will find Graendal and Rahvin."

Moggy pretty much says who Rand is going to find in Camylen. Thus it should have been obvious to us as soon as Asmo was killed.



"Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?"

"I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!"

The fish don't matter!

Posted by sancheward on 03.04.02 18:48
Now, i just want to say that the Graendal theory sounds great and is a very good evidence to the killer of Asmodean. Yet the fish part doesn't matter for the pure reason that Rhavin could have had that ready for Rand for weeks before it was triggered when Rand ran past the pond. It would NOT have been undone if Rhavin had set this tray even an hour earier. After all, Rand only burned Rhavin out of 30 minutes of the pattern. So if he set it earier, that would explain why the bites were still on Rand. That is what I think at least.


Sancheward

Excerpt from WotFAQ Against Graendal

Posted by jcolony72 on 19.07.02 22:33
What fish? The fish in T'A'R which attack Rand. After Rahvin is BFed, Rand still has fish-bites which Nynaeve must Heal [TFOH: 55, The Threads Burn, 673]. Because BF erases somebody backwards, and Rahvin was erased back to before he entered T'A'R, the bites would have been un-created if Rahvin had made the fish. Thus, somebody else must have made the fish. This third party could have been Graendal.

However, this is not how balefire works in T'A'R. Joel Gilmore went to see RJ at a book signing in Australia (21 September, 1999), and here's what he found out:


I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/T'A'R question - when someone is BFed, the constructs they make in T'A'R do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with T'A'R and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire is used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example.
So, the fish were created by Rahvin, and we are left without even that thin bit of evidence that Graendal was anywhere near Caemlyn when Asmodean was whacked.

Solid Theory

Posted by Bubonic on 07.08.02 22:02
I think the evidence for Graendal being the killer is solid. Even if Graendal didn't channel the fish, that doesn't matter because there is other evidence that points to her. I think Windsor brought up a good passage above that pretty much seals the deal. For anyone who still thinks it's Lanfear, let me just point out that Lanfear is resurrected as Cyndane, so Asmodian wouldn't have recognized her. Also, it seems like a pretty complicated plan for the DO to retrieve Lanfear from Finnland, resurrect her into a new body and then send her to kill Asmodian. It would just be easier to use Graendal who is already there.

I also don't think it matters that Graendal channeled. The Aes Sedai and Wise Ones would have just assumed it was one of there own channeling. It was most definitely Graendal, so let us put this matter to rest once and for all and move on with our lives.

--Bubonic

Who knew where Asmodean was?

Posted by Falken224 on 23.08.02 15:07
Think back to the darkhound attack on Rand. Remember the footprints that led up to Asmodean's door, but didn't go in? Rand erases them, then speculates that maybe there were just looking for something (someone?) and reporting back.

Lanfear then tells him that Rahvin sent the darkhounds. Now, Lanfear's little secret about where Asmodean is isn't a secret anymore. So . . . who knows where he is?

Rahvin would doubtlessly tell the others, and they all know as Nynaeve is spying on them in T'A'R. So, Graendal, Sammael, Lanfear, Rahvin, Moghedien, and let's not forget Moirain and Rand, all know where Asmodean is . . . with Rand.

Rahvin dies, Lanfear dies, Moiraine dies, Moghedien is trapped, Sammael doesn't know WHERE Asmodean went and neither does Rand. Nobody else knows where he is . . . except Graendal.

Yet more proof that she did it.

Besides, she's the ONLY one of the forsaken who just out and out SAYS that he's dead. (or at least that she's sure of it.)

There really are no other suspects, and she's the obvious choice.

As to how she got into Caemlyn . . . the True Power. NOBODY can feel that.

And the fishbite thing doesn't prove she was in T'A'R as others have pointed out.

Anyway . . . my two cents worth.

Truth

Posted by Aile Dashar on 02.12.02 21:52
Truth is found through reason, and you have reasoned enough to shame the rest of us till Judgement Day.


Would you fight the Dark One for a Klondike Bar???

I would . . .

I'm sorry, but your wrong

Posted by Moridin Haran on 16.01.03 02:27
First off, in chapter 6, when Sammael and Graendal are talking they both talk about Asmodean's killing as if someone else did it, thinking that it was Rand .

Also in chapter 23 when Graendal visited Sammael, even though they didn't talk about the killing explicitly, when they were talking about Rand killing Sammael messanger, they metioned that Rand probly killed Asomodean, also.

Also this theory says that Asmodean felt a breeze and or shiver in response to Graendals channeling, which was never metioned in the book. Instead he was shivering thinking about his existance after being brought back to life when Rand killed Rahvin with balefire. The exact quote is, "Idly-but with a shiver, too- he wonderd whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man."

And even if there was some channeling when she opend the portal, Aviendha would have noticed. In fact it probly wasn't a woman channeling anything but a tiny amount, or Aviendha would have noticed that, but that's another theory.

And in rsponse to the fact that the fish bites were there after Rahvin was balefired means that Graendal must have set the trap is not conclusive. Rahvin was waiting for Rand for days, and set his own wards to protect himself, and he could have set the wards way before Rand Balefired him. So the ward that set fishes on Rand could have been set far enough before the Balefire as to not be affected by it's erasal of Rahvins actions.

Also, Graendal has no reason to help Rahvin out a little bit, they could have linked with Sammael, as they were planning, and easily decematated Rand. True, the Forsakens mistrust twords each other could have made them hesitant to link, but it's just as likely that Graendal just wasn't there and was back stabbing Rahvin. So the fishes are not conclusive proof.

I am a little inclined to agree with you, just by instinct, but this theory is in no way "Conclusive."

mmm

Posted by ingtarshinowa on 24.02.03 20:11
why would greandal(sp?) kill asmo right on the spot?


Press START

Why wouldn't she?

Posted by esteiner on 12.03.03 16:11
Of course Graendal would kill him on the spot. He is a traitor, plus he would recognize her and could sound an alarm.

I am not sure about the Granedal/Sammael conversation but I seem to recall Graendal saying something to the effect of "Rand killed him." instead of "Rand must have killed him." As if she is sure he is dead.

Besides, it cannot be anyone else. The Lanfear theory is flimsy at best, and RJ saying we meet his killer in tFoH seals it for me. We met Lanfear in tGH.

why graendal was still there

Posted by Crolan_Dashiva on 15.05.03 10:21
the evidence is very overwhelming for your theory, looking at it now. As for why she stayed in caemlyn, I have a different thought.

After Sammael died, we see Graendal looting Sammael's palace for objects of the pwoer and whatnot. All the Forsaken found astasis boxes, and she probably stuck around to filch Rahvin's goodies. channeled her way around, and found ehrself face to face with Asmodean, struck him down and dissapeared.

my question, my doubt, is if it's such a simple answer, why did Jordan go and make ti so mysterious a passage, why kleep us intrigued so long?

Doubtful

Posted by Shen al Calhar on 09.07.04 14:37
The difference between Greandal looting Sammael's house and Rand's is this:

Rand was in Caemlyn at the time Asmo died. He wasn't in Illian City, he was riding around mopping up Sammael's armies. And we know that Greandal is reluctant to come near anywhere Rand is. Also, she knew that Sammael had found a stasis box while she would've been just guessing with Rahvin.

So: In Greandal's mind, she would have risked meeting Rand just to go into the Royal Palace to look for a stasis box that there was no indication that it existed?

That is too big a risk for Greandal, therefore this is not why.


9/10/06, 3:15 PM, Lambeau Field. See you there.

Belals Girl is so nice to me "If you guys need any help
killing him, let me know."
I don't care what ANYONE says, Lan DID kill Asmo!!

The Dastardly Plot

Posted by AgingComputer on 22.10.04 18:28
OK, guys, we seem to be a little confused about the Forsaken's plot to capture/kill Rand in TFoH. Ok, let's look at the facts:

FACT: The plotters were Graendal, Lanfear, Sammael, and Rahvin.
FACT: The plan was to lure Rand into attacking Sammael. Not Rahvin.

You want proof, you say?

1. Sammael sends the attacks on Rand in the Waste, or at least the DF's are shouting, "Sammael! Sammael and the Bees!" (The Golden Bees of Illian.)
2. Sammael attacks Rand in Cairhien. Or, at least, obsensibly it's Sammael. Rand comes to that conclusion because it was Sammael who attacked him in the waste.
3. They also talk about how Rand must be focused on Sammael when Nyn overhears them in T'A'R.
4. Melindhra was RAHVIN's agent, not Sammael's. When Nyn spies on them, she hears Rahvin say, "If need be, one close to him will die, plainly by your order." So when Melindhra learns from Mat that Rand's going to Caemlyn to attack Rahvin, she flips out and tries to stab him with the Golden Bees dagger. Plainly by Sammael's order.

FACT: Moggy said that Rahvin and Graendal were waiting for Rand to attack Sammael in Illian. Then they would link and crush him.
FACT: The attack was planned for that day, because Moggy says so. Rahvin was waiting in Caemlyn.

But wait! If Rahvin and Graendal were waiting together, it stands to reason that Graendal was in Caemlyn also!

FACT: Sammael doesn't want to link with the other Forsaken unless he has command of the ring. But Rahvin is fine with it.

Interesting that Graendal and Rahvin are together, and not in Illian. This suggests that Graendal and Rahvin would recieve some sort of signal, link, and Travel to Illian to face Rand.

FACT: Graendal says that she will not confront Rand directly.

With only her and Rahvin in Caemlyn, it makes sense that she would not have the guts to fight Rand with him.

FACT: Graendal has looted the homes of dead Forsaken. She does it with Sammael. She said there was some risk involved, because Rand and the Asha'man were constantly in and out of Sammael's chambers, but it was worth the risk to remove all traces that she was allied with Sammael.

SO! Graendal supposes it important enough to remove those traces that she will risk her precious hide in Illian. Doesn't it make sense that she would do the same with Rahvin? I find it very plausible that she would be in Caemlyn during the time frame that Asmo was killed...

Graendal-dunnit.

No No and No!

Posted by jesusjesus72 on 27.11.07 12:06
Rand did it! He knew Asmodean's whereabouts, and is not afraid to unleash Balefire. He doesn't question where his mentor and teacher has gone, and tells us that he as gone to "visit someone".

Finally, Asmodean is shocked that the killer would actually be... whoever it was. "You? No!". Rand was his 'branch to hold on onto in a flood', and that would explain his surprise at being betrayed/disposed of.


Just your average Christian WoT reader gone social.

split

Posted by imp_1975 on 26.01.08 23:18
is there any support that perhaps rand lost himself in the moment and lews therin took over he would certainly have been recognized and suprized asmodian and there is no secret that he has no love for pretty much anyone that can channel anywhere near him the phrase kill them now seemed to come out often. There seems to be more to this split in personality than the suface who is to say that the fortelling of Rands death in the final battle could hint to the seperation of the two personalities with only part of rand dieing and perhaps leaving something behind that is alive not quiet whole and still rand.

Agreed

Posted by Mashiara333 on 14.09.08 17:09
I know this is a very old theory, and I really never post here. However, I have seen this theory looked at from so many different ways, and I think we are all over-thinking it.

I have read, and re-read a lot of the stuff on this site, and I have to say it's Graendal for certain. I love the books, but I haven't had the chance to scrutinize them as much as many people here.

Although I am not "the most casual observer", I come a lot closer than most...It can't be Lanfear, she was dead (at that point in time, to the most casual observer). It has to be Graendal, because she was a Forsaken, with the ability to be recognized by Asmodean, and with the ability to prevent him from fighting back as she killed him (shielding, maybe?).

She was also in that plot with the other Forsaken, and had reason to be there (eliminate evidence of her involvement, get cool AoL stuff, or just visiting with her co-conspirator when Rand came in fighting).

With Rand and company roaming freely after recently destroying a powerful Forsaken, she had reason for stealth. A pantry makes perfect sense; she is not going to go about sneaking in and out of the palace through the throne room or some other frequently visited location. Furthermore, she had motive. Namely; fear, opportunity for advancement, and anger. Fear because she believes Asmodean has turned, and would have every reason to confine her/report her/hurt her after accidentally discovering her. Opportunity for advancement because it could get her in good standing with the DO, and eliminate rivals for Nae'blis. Anger because Asmodean was sitting there teaching Rand all of this great stuff about the AOL, making him more powerful and harder to kill and/or manipulate.

Asmodean bumped into her. She likely shielded him/perhaps lashed out with one of those uber-compulsion weaves, and then killed him. The shield or uber-compulsion would explain Asmodean's "NO!" If he had just been killed outright, he might not have had time for that. Then, she killed him; he was a traitor, and she could not possibly make any use of him. Also, he knew about her presence there, and that could hurt her.