Asmodean Was NOT Killed By Balefire

Posted by Damian Leach on 22.01.01 00:00

People often refer to the Dark One's comment to Demandred relating Asmodean to Rahvin and Be'lal (a the beginning of Lord of Chaos). However, I think this is misconstrued. Whilst Asmodean was killed nigh on instantly, he was not killed with balefire. The Dark One did not mean he was unable to resurrect him , only unwilling. Why? Because he was a traitor and a weakling. Of all the Forsaken he was the most reluctant, and achieved the least, as well as being the weakest in the Power (though the last I doubt is really an important consideration; Asmodean's problem is that he forever doubted what he did - he would be every bit as effective as the others if he embraced the Shadow rather than kept it at arms length). Rather than being beyond his reach, the Dark One simply sees no reason to waste his effort.

wotmania says: Not to disagree, but... Well, I guess I will disagree. What convinces me that Asmodean was killed with balefire is how Jordan describes it. Compare that to the way earlier characters (Be’lal comes to mind) have died when they were balefired. To me, the descriptions are too similar to dismiss.


Comments

Hate to disagree

Posted by Lord Nazh on 14.04.01 00:00
I disagree with wotmania (again).... I don't think Asmo was balefired because there's absolutely nothing to suggest that his thread was plucked before he died.... everything he did would have been like it never happened and only the memories would remain.... now it could've been a very small amount of BF but, still something would be amiss...

Asmodean killed by balefire, but...

Posted by KLitke7967 on 18.07.01 18:04
I agree and disagree. I think Asmodean was killed by balefire mainly due to the description and the fact that it leaves no trace whatsoever, but I never looked at the Dark One's comment as meaning balefire. I just looked at it as "He's a traitor."


KLitke7967

Points on either side

Posted by netweaver on 21.10.01 14:37
The similarity between the deaths of Asmodean and Belal is more than coincidence: the descriptions
are so alike there must surely be some significance to it.

Be'lal: 'specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded'
Asmodean: 'his words still hung in the air when death took him'

Having said that, I find it hard to see why Balfire would be used. If it was one of the Chosen who killed Asmodean, as is probable, why eliminate Asmodean's thread from the pattern, denying him the
slow death that a traitor of the Great Lord must surely have wanted. It even removes the ability of the Dark One to reaincarnate him and hand him to Semirhage....



~netweaver~

well

Posted by Alex the Chosen on 06.11.01 13:58
Could be me, but I don`t see the importance of this discussion. Asmo is dead, and I`m his reincarnation, that`s it.


Alex the Chosen

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Member of The Wotmania Revival Corps

Leader of "the Order of Sodamachine"

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NO BALEFIRE

Posted by Braidtugger on 11.03.02 05:19
Asmodean was not killed by balefire. The "similarities" between Be'lal's death and Asmodean's don't really seem to be similarities to me at all. There a lot of ways to die quickly.

Secondly, Rand would have felt balefire being used in a second. More likely than not, he would have detected saidar too. The True Power or a physical weapon seem most likely to me.

As to WHO, the great, great question, there are all sorts of folks who could have done it. I don't buy Moiraine or Lanfear for a second. Literarily, Demandred would be the obvious choice, since he's the featured star of the following book's prologue. In that scene, the DO clearly states that from now on, the DO and only the DO will be deciding who lives and dies.

Demandred also has the most to gain from Asmodean's death. By killing Asmodean, Demandred eliminates competition (Asmodean himself, however meager), he eliminates the teacher of his arch-rival, and firmly puts himself one step closer to Nae'blis. Demandred was a skilled swordsman back in the day, just like LTT, and his appearance to Asmodean in a pantry would ilicit both surprise and recognition (it's little likely that Asmodean even knows Demandred is free yet when he dies).

Graendal is an interesting guess as well, but not because Jordan did or did not hint at it in some supposed online chat that none of us has actually seen. If Robert Jordan himself knocked on my door and told me Graendel did it, maybe I'd believe him then.

I know it sounds stupid, but I don't think Shaidar Haran could have fit in a mortal pantry. I also don't think Asmodean would necessarily recognize him.

Samael is a good choice too, for he hated LTT and hates Rand equally. Still, RJ makes it abundantly obvious that he operates best from a defensive position. Running to Caemlyn to whack Asmodean even before the balefire motes have settled seems hasty to me.

Padan Fain is an excellent idea, and an evil dagger across the throat certainly would take care of business lickety-split. I am unsure about Fain's movements around this time in the series. I need to reread a bit.

Moridin. The less said about this guy the better. I need a good two more books to even begin to figure out how I feel about him. He's a possibility, but I don't like to theorize much about him.

Sorry for the tangent. To sum up, Asmodean indeed was NOT killed by balefire. Look for a bloody sword or dagger.

-Braidtugger

Not balefire damnit

Posted by Knight_of_The_Dragon on 18.04.02 14:18
If you look at everything, Graendal is the only forsaken not accounted for at the time of Asmo's death, and she is positive that he is dead later on. I think that the reason nobody realized what happened was because she used the True Power instead of the One power to kill Asmo, so that way she wouldn't be detected. At that point, neither Moridin nor Shadar Hanan had been introduced into the series, so maybe the DO was still allowing the remaining forsaken to use the TP.




Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim



Of course not balefire. Duh!

Posted by poor_WoT_addict on 07.05.02 13:00
Everybody seems to be neglecting the fact that the Chosen (who were all part of the War of Power) REALLY don't want to use balefire. I don't remember which of the Chosen(other than Ishamael) throws it at Rand (is it Sammael or Rahvin?), but they're doing it in the last defense of their life (kinda like when they'd use the True Power). I don't have all the books with me to look up a quote, but they tend to abide by the No Balefire oath... When Demandred goes to Shayol Ghul, the DO asks him IF... IF! he will release the balefire in his service.

NOW.

Why would one of the Chosen use a weapon that they were so reluctant to use when there's a trillion different ways to kill a partially sheilded weakling? Instantly!(heart stopping, head bashing, burning to a cinder with regular fire, etc.) It's the same reason I would doubt use of the TP unless the killer was Moridin (and it's been pretty well proven that it was Graendal).

So the poor little WoT addict's comment on the whole thing...


GRAENDAL killed him with the ONE POWER, but WITHOUT balefire.

Correct he was not

Posted by JoTair on 11.07.02 23:05
When the Dark one talked about Rahvin her said even I can't undo Balefire. He really didn't include Asmodean in the same sentence as the Balefire comment. Asmodean was a waste and the Dark One just doesn't care to bring him back.

In responce

Posted by OmnipotentEntity on 09.08.02 00:34
The DO's statement, although it doesn't support the use of balefire, it certainly doesn't preclude it. Even if Asmodean wasn't BFed the DO wouldn't have ressurected him, so I doubt he even tried. The DO probably doesn't know whether or not Asmodean was BFed. Though, because of the reasons above I do believe that Asmo was BFed, (and I believe that Lanfear did it, if anyone wants to know why I'll write a theory on it.)


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Asmodean May Have Been Balefired

Posted by JoyfulKatze on 25.02.03 11:10
While I'm fairly sure that Asmodean was not killed by Balefire, it is possible. It is nigh well impossible that he was killed using either Saidin or Saidar (as Rand, Mat, or Aviendha would have felt it), it could be he was killed using the power from the DO. None of the channelers, except for Asmodean, that are in the palace would have felt it being used and it would have been a handy way to get rid of all the evidence.
Also at this point in the books Moridin hasn't shown up and been given the only use of the True Power. So he could have been killed by another Forsaken.

mmm

Posted by ingtarshinowa on 03.03.03 01:23
yeah i just reread LoC and the DO doesn't compare Be'lal to anybody...maybe Be'lal is alive...YES!


Press START

Be'lal is dead, dude.

Posted by tincanchaser on 26.04.03 11:39
Be'lal was balefired; you cannot resurrect someone who has been BFed, so the history/facts/proof goes.

I am convinced that Graendal killed Asmodean. The 'You? NO!" may prove that he expected the person stepping from the gateway to be Rand, but it obviously wasn't. The other Forsaken/Chosen were not happy with him -- any of them would have killed him on the spot, except for Lanfear, because that would contradict her whole purpose of plopping him down with Rand for a few days of playing school. She's dead et/or gone, anyway.

Asmodean didn't do anything important right before he was killed -- BFing him would not really affect much. Maybe Graendal BFed him... maybe not.


Lissa M. Rose

"Bring out your dead!"

"You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!"


Bashere is my killer.

Posted by Whitelight on 25.10.03 12:30
It can't be a coincidence that Asmodean is killed the same day that Bashere comes to Rand.
All the other suspects would have killed him a lot sooner to prevent him helping Rand,or for his betrayal.Opening a portal and balefireing him could easily have been done much earlier.
Asmodean has to be killed to keep the real identity of Bashere a secret.Bashere is also seen carrying a jug of wine.
If Bashere did it on his own or had help from someone else I don't know.
Bashere also gets Rand's ear very quickly and Rand wants his advice a lot.It wouldn't have been possible when Asmodean was there.



It's time to toss the dice.