Taim Done It

Posted by Aan'Allein on 22.01.01 00:00

I don't think I've seen anyone suggest this yet, so I thought I would throw it out there and see what people make of it. I think Taim may have killed Asmodean. Let's look at the evidence:

  1. We are supposed to have enough information to determine the killer in the first five books.
  2. Jordan has said that he thought the identity of the killer was obvious.
  3. Jordan has also said that very few of the letters he gets are correct about who killed Asmodean.
I think the killer had to be someone who can channel because of how quickly Asmodean died. Padan Fain would have been a candidate, but the Shadar Logoth dagger and the other ways we have seen Fain kill are too slow.

From 1 and 2 above, I'm going to assume that Semirhage, Mesaana, and Demandred are ruled out. We haven't seen them at all through the first five books, and it could hardly be obvious that one of them did it. Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, Ishamael, and Rahvin are certainly dead when Asmodean died, and I think Lanfear was either dead or in Finnland at the time. Moghedien is either under the influence of Nynaeve's potion or wearing the a'dam. This leaves Graendal or Sammael to do the deed. There's a Sammael point of view in Lord of Chaos where he doesn't seem to know what happened to Asmodean, and I don't think Sammael would have been wandering the palace in Caemlyn anyway. Of the Forsaken, only Graendal seems to be a good candidate, and this conclusion comes more from a process of elimination than anything else (doesn't fit the obviousness criteria in my mind). The two favorites for the killer seem to be Lanfear and Graendal, so I think if one of them had done it, Jordan wouldn't have said 3, above.

Some people have suggested that the killer must be a woman, because Rand would have sensed someone channeling saidin, and it has been suggested that the reason Asmodean shivers just before he is killed is that someone is channeling saidar nearby. I think if the shivers were caused by saidar, Asmodean would have known immediately what was going on. We have seen in the past that the male Forsaken know when women are channeling, and they've had a long time to get used to the feeling. As to Rand sensing saidin being channeled nearby, we don't know how far away Rand is when Asmodean is killed, and we don't really know how far away he can sense someone using saidin.

I've never heard Taim suggested as the killer, but there is a clue that points to him. What's more, I think this hint may have been why Jordan said it's obvious who the killer is. In the scene immediately before Asmodean dies, Bashere shows up in Caemlyn, introduces himself to Rand, and says that he's chasing Taim. This means Taim is somewhere in Andor, if not Caemlyn itself. Taim is certainly strong enough to have taken care of Asmodean, especially in his weakened state, so that's not a problem.

This theory has one interesting side effect: If Taim is the killer, then he cannot be Demandred, at least not when he kills Asmodean. (Do I get bonus points for that? :) At the beginning of Lord of Chaos, there is a Demandred point of view where it is made very clear that he doesn't know what happened to Asmodean. I suppose that Taim could be replaced between the murder and his appearance in Lord of Chaos, but I don't think it's very likely.

And now for the problem with this theory: Why would Asmodean recognize Taim, and if he did, why would he be so scared? I have to admit I don't really have a good answer for this one. Maybe somebody else can help me out?

wotmania says: That is pretty much my problem with this concept, too - I cannot understand how Asmodean would recognize Taim. Also, how would Taim know where Asmodean is? I also think there is a possibility that Asmodean would not have recognized that a woman was channeling nearby - he was a bit preoccupied at the time with having been brought back from the dead... I definitely like the side effect of Taim not being Demandred!


Comments

My thoughts on Taim

Posted by KLitke7967 on 18.07.01 18:01
Actually, I just researched this myself and posted it as a theory...and then found this saying essentially the same thing! There are ways Asmodean could have recognized him, though. First off, Taim is a channeler of immense strength, as Rand comments that he is able to channel only a little less than himself (and maybe more than he actually was holding, if he lied). Don't you think the Forsaken would have latched on to him? Someone would have. Let's say for these purposes it was Lanfear, as she becomes the most likely with what I'll be saying here. Lanfear is obsessed with Lews Therin, and expects him to reborn soon, due to everything that's happening, like the seals being weakened. So, she convinces Taim, a powerful channeler, to declare himself the Dragon Reborn. This way she knows when Lews Therin declares himself, just in case. As it turns out it didn't matter, because she found him first, but why not have a backup plan? (A quick note, I'm not sure when Taim declared himself and when Lanfear escaped, so this might not be exact here, but if Lanfear escaped after, ignore this part and continue on). So, Taim is captured and being taken to the White Tower. Around this time, Lanfear appears in the White Tower, talking to Mat (and Egwene? I can't remember when Egwene saw her). She may have been there for another reason, perhaps figuring out how to get Taim released. So, Taim escapes, and Lanfear (with Asmodean in tow) appears to him. Lanfear has Asmodean teach Taim something (balefire, gating, whatever), and then has Taim go to Andor. So, then we go through the Shadow Rising. We know what happens there. Now, Lanfear goes to Taim and says "If anything happens to me, kill Asmodean." or something of the like, and tells him who he is. Lanfear apparently dies (and since she's Cyndane, probably does at some point). Taim is prepared to go to Cairhien (just a guess, where everyone assumed Rand and Asmodean are). Suddenly (like, the day of or after Lanfear's death, I believe), Rand gates in and all hell breaks loose. After he kills Rahvin, Asmodean winds up dead. It's not exactly likely, but it is possible. Or perhaps Lanfear didn't order Asmodean dead, but Taim had other orders (or working of his own free will now) to get on Rand's good side somehow, and Asmodean would recognize him as a darkfriend. It is a possibility, folks.


KLitke7967

Hmmm....

Posted by SharonToggle on 31.07.01 12:30
An interesting proposition. We don't really know where Asmodean was before traveling with those merchant Darkfriends, and he may have run into Taim on his travels (or Travels). Another thing, though, why would Taim want to kill Asmodean? Was he just in the wrong place at the wrong time?


When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout

"It's the owner of the flowerbed
She grew roses to hide her brother, dead
This is the proof that I must show
Watch this tape and you will know"

Not likely

Posted by Jim on 03.08.01 14:11
As you mentioned, it seems unlikely that Asmo would have recognized Taim, much less been that afraid of him. Also Taim has no motive to kill Asmo, unless you take the response above and think Lanfear recruited him, which seems highly unlikely to me, and even if she had, there's almost no way for Taim to have known she died that day anyway.

As for your number 3 about the letters, that was stated shortly after tFoH came out, at the time Graendal wasn't a high contender for killing Asmo, in fact I believe this statement is what lead people to start thinking that Graendal did it.

Until I see some definate proof that Graendal didn't do it or someone else did for sure, I'm sticking with her. She may only be there because of an elimination of the rest, but the others were still eliminated.

Jim


Sir Jim
Lord of Minutia™
King of WoT MB Posts™

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

Well

Posted by DaVipa on 29.08.01 18:01
Based on this theory, it is either Graendal or Slayer. Personally, I think it was Isam/Slayer/whatever (he can step out of the dream wherever he wants without channeling. I don't think it was Taim, because the amount of Power required to kill someone that rapidly would draw Rand's attention like bee's to honey. He would go nuts and Travel to that spot immediately, or perhaps just destroy that spot.

No He Didn't

Posted by DragonFiend on 22.10.01 18:50
I am pretty sure it was not Taim. In fact it was probably Graendal. There I spoke my part.

Another thought on Taim

Posted by randwashere on 11.12.01 18:18
I really had never even considered Taim, but lets look at this more in depth. If it was Taim, then that means Asmo would have recognized him, which means that perhaps he and Lanfear had a similar arrangment to teach him how to use his power so they could use him to further the cause of the darkside. (I am assuming Taim is a darkfriend here, but Rand wasn't and they taught him hoping to recruit him.) Now Taim, finding Asmo with Rand assumes (correctly) that Asmo is teaching Rand how to channel. Taim, being arrogant, wants to be the Dragon Reborn, and feels it might further his cause if he kills Asmo before he can teach Rand anymore. Taim does seem to have alot of knowledge, and it has been suggested before that he may have been taught by a forsaken. I will sum it up by saying that I believe Taim did actually have a reason to kill Asmo, apart from the theory that Lanfear ordered him to.


Pronounced: "Rand was here"

I like it

Posted by borderlander on 14.05.02 07:42
People,
Think of it this way. What if it was Taim was a darkfriend that did have a relationship of some kind with Asmo before Asmo was attached to Rand? Then he would definately have to remove Asmo before he could come forward to ask for Amnesty from Rand. Asmo would be right there to piont out that he was a darkfriend. This does work esspecially well if he is a darkfriend that has been bounced from forsaken to forsaken. that Black tower would not even exisit if not for Taim. Besided, I think that he knew what Rand was going for asking of amnstey to all men that could channel that came to him. He would have been killed right off the bat if Asmo spotted him.


BORDERLANDER

TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer

hmmm

Posted by ingtarshinowa on 24.02.03 20:04
if i recall, didnt jordan say that the killer had been revealed( i use that term loosely, i mean that they showed up before asmos death)so that would rule out taim...and taims a lightfriend!wee!


Press START

Well...

Posted by KLitke7967 on 18.03.03 19:31
Well, all he said was that it should be obvious at the time of death. While this isn't as "obvious" as it seems, since nobody knows for sure, that tells us that anyone who had never been heard from beforehand couldn't be a suspect. Taim was mentioned in Eye of the World and The Great Hunt, and also was mentioned 2 or 3 pages before Asmodean's death. it was revealed that Taim was currently in Caemlyn.


KLitke7967

I agree...

Posted by chora on 03.04.03 12:26
For a while now, I've thought Taim killed Asmo. Why? Otherwise, Asmo would tell Rand Taim is a darkfriend.

The main problem with this theory is: How did Taim and Asmo meet?

Here's my theory:
Asmo and Lanfear helped Taim escape the Aes Sedai. Asmo teaches Taim for a brief period, which reinforces Lanfear's idea that Asmo be Rand's tutor.
To ensure that Taim really can channel, Asmo does the test. Taim picks it up, and later shows Rand. Asmo never taught that basic weave to Rand, so Taim is surprised Rand does not know it.
Asmo also probably tells Taim about the Old Tongue and history. Taim calls the Aiel "so-called". While I may be reading way too much into this, he may use that phrase because he knows a little about the history of the Aiel. Asmo, who will be associating with the Aiel shortly, may have told Taim this story.
Another theory I have is that the DL does not immediately know of Asmo's death. When he talks to Dem. at the beginning of aCoS, nothing the DL says suggests that Asmo is dead. What he suggests is that Asmo has turned, and will die for it. If Slayer, as some suggest, killed Asmo, the DL would know of it. If any of the Forsaken had killed Asmo, the DL would likely know of it. But if it was Taim, a darkfriend who has not yet attained Forsaken status, the DL might not know about it yet.

Anyway, there's no real proof to this argument, and I know most people that read this will still think the killer Graendal. It's another possibility, I suppose. Either way, I raise a question: Should Taim be a darkfriend, which Forsaken is he associating with?

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:22
u have bad grammar


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:22
i didnt even read it because few ppl have


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:22
i dont make any sence


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:23
i just take up space


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:23
and i use whole seperate entrees for different comments



"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:23
sounds dum


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:24
well unwow really


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:25
im mr. random space taker


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

wow

Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 29.06.03 19:25
im really bored


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

a non space-consuming comment

Posted by the speedbart on 21.11.04 11:11
think about asmodeans last words:
you! no
perhaps asmodean thought taim was demandred (many reasonably sensible readers still think this!)and said:
you!
this would explain the fear and suprise displayed by asmodean.
then it dawned on him that the man before him wasnt demandred so he said:
no
many assume that he displayed disbelief with the phrase no, but it could just have easily been asmodean thinking aloud. unfortuneatley taim killed asmodean on the spot , so we were unable to learn anymore.


let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time

Made the second post on the new WoTMB2

oooo another relatively small and useless thought!

Posted by the speedbart on 21.11.04 11:19
taim could have done it to get close to rand. taim may associate his failure as a false dragon to the sudden appearance of rand in the sky. this would give taim a serious reason to hate rand. the problem with killing rand is he trusts no-one and the only people he keeps close are those he needs. taim senses asmodeans use of saidin during the battle (he was in the area at the time), and comes to the conclusion that he needs to eliminate this threat to get close to rand!


let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time

Made the second post on the new WoTMB2