A Point Against Graendal

Posted by Rollins on 22.01.01 00:00

Jeremie bases most of his theory on the fish bites that Nynaeve must Heal for Rand. I have a point against that theory.

In Lord of Chaos Egwene travels to Salidar through Tel'aran'rhiod. Once in Tel'aran'rhiod she uses her control of her environment to temporarily Heal her wounds. The Healing wears off after she leaves the World of Dreams. Thus a person's thoughts can control any injuries they might have.

In The Fires of Heaven Moiraine says to Rand that when something is destroyed by balefire, it ceases to exist before it was hit, but the memories remain.

Put these two facts together and we come to the crux of the matter.

Rand remains in Tel'aran'rhiod from the time when someone sics the piranhas on him until the time when Nynaeve heals him. Therefore after Rahvin is killed Rand remembers being bitten and remembers the pain of his wounds, so he retains the wounds while still in Tel'aran'rhiod.

However, if he were to return to the real palace in Caemlyn, his wounds would disappear.

Now, you might be thinking, "But Nynaeve Healed him." Thinking logically, when Nynaeve Heals Rand he believes that all his wounds but the old wound in his side will be Healed. She believes likewise and so the wounds disappear. Thus he notices nothing when he returns to the real Caemlyn.

Thus Rahvin could have inflicted the fish-bite wounds on Rand and still have caused Rand to still "require" Healing.

wotmania says: The key difference between these two cases is this... Rand and Egwene were both in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. Egwene eased some hurts she had through her control of the World of Dreams. Rand was Healed by Nynaeve while in Tel'aran'rhiod - he was not healed through someone's control of Tel'aran'rhiod. That is why Egwene's healing only lasted until she exited the dream, and Rand's lasted after he exited the World of Dreams.


see fish

Posted by Lord Nazh on 14.04.01 00:00
see my fish episode earlier on the blackboard

A better point

Posted by Dora Sedai on 15.04.01 00:00
Graendal asks if, who ever tells them, is sure Asmodean is dead. Why would she ask, if she killed him. She would just believe.

Dora Sedai
Keeper of the Notes


Posted by Onarishma on 11.06.01 02:50
quick thought,
Im not sure of the graendal thing. And in response to your point wotmania, Rollins i think was saying that rand was still wounded because he believed he was wounded and that nynaeves healing did not effect him at all. And on the off side sometimes in cases such as these i believe that RJ was caught up in the moment and not so deep into the science of his world. I had never really considered that part of the story as anything truly special, it fit into what i would expect to happen at that point. Big battle, bump into friend, quick words, doctor me up cause that was rough, ttyl. But who know the theory that i read about it being Graendal was convincing im just not sure yet.

Where did these Skimmers come from? I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author. Why risk arriving at the wrong destination? Why risk falling into darkness?

I disagree

Posted by Adicus on 05.07.01 11:49
Of course Rand's subconscious would be aware of the bites, but in TAR YOU have to be thinking about something to disappear, not just some subconscious awareness.

Also, the simplest solution tends to be the right one. What's simpler? The confusing TAR physics or that Graendal did it?


Posted by Moriana on 27.12.01 05:29
This makes sense, in a way, and in another way, it doesn't make sense... if that makes any sense!

OK, so, if Rahvin created the fish that bit Rand, then when he ceased to exist *before* he created the fish, there were no more bites. Except that Rand didn't realize at the time that what Rahvin had err undone went so far back, as we see in his surprise that Asmo Avi etc are all alive.

So the real question is, would he or would he not have still had the fish bites, whether he still felt them subconciously or not?

The main counter to this is the fact that Egwene, by controlling TAR, caused her bruises to dissapear during her stint to Salidar in the flesh. This, however does NOT mean that the opposite (or whatever it is) would be true with Rand, as he did not conciously think he still had bites, or was concentrating on holding them there. But it might be.

I think this is a question that needs to be asked of RJ, as there isn't enough info to answer one way or another. (That I'm aware of, anyways)

Of course, this might be an overlook by RJ, as TAR and balefire in the same chapter are awfully confusing, even to the writer i bet.


Posted by redushab on 22.09.02 16:01
Ok, now people have already basicly said this, but I'm going to try to summarize it as simply as possible:
1) Egwene controls the pain herself, this means:
A) We know that it is impossible to actually heal yourself,
therefor we know that Egwene was not actually healed
B) Egwene has alot of knowledge of T'AR from the Wise Ones,
she knows how to control things there, therefor what she
does there is simply an affect of T'AR and wouldn't
carry over to the real world
2) Nynaeve HEALED Rand, this means:
A) Since any injury etc aquired in T'AR is real, we can
surmize that this holds true for healing as well
B) Because Nynaeve used the One Power, which we know works
in T'AR from other encounters we know that the healing
Nyneave's healing of Rand was much like being injured in T'Ar, it hold in the real world. Egwene's easing of the pain is simply her using of the knowledge of T'AR to control it, and therefor has no affect once she leaves it, as, for example, one's dress doesn't change in the real world based on what they think on themselves in T'AR.