Why Graendal Did It

Posted by Knarfling on 22.01.01 00:00

First of all, I want to say that I came up with this theory on my own, before finding this site. After I posted my theory on another board I was informed of this site and thought I would submit it here as well. Many people have come up with this same answer, so I won't claim orginiality, but I hope to cover it thoroughly.

I was re-reading The Fires of Heaven and I had to ask a question. When I figured out the answer, Asmodean's killer leaped out of the book and bit me. This theory will answer eight requirements needed to be the killer.

  1. Means (how it was done)
  2. Motive (why)
  3. Opportunity (had to be in Caemlyn at the time or have a way of getting there.)
  4. Recognized by Asmodean (and scared him)
  5. Disposed of the body
  6. Knows Asmodean's fate
  7. The reason the death is kept secret. (why doesn't Jordan reveal it?)
  8. Be "obvious" (as per Robert Jordan)
I will not spend a lot of time on people that it can't be, but concentrate on just a few suspects.

The item that caught my attention was, Nynaeve having to Heal Rand after balefiring Rahvin. Why did she have to Heal him if everything that Rahvin did was undone when he balefired him? We know that things prior to Rand being hurt were undone (Asmodean's, Mat's and Aviendha's deaths), so why weren't Rand'swounds undone?

I then realized I was making an assumption. I assumed that Rahvin caused the wounds. But what if another Forsaken was with Rahvin in dreamland? Someone who wanted to slip in a bit of help, but didn't want to be noticed in case of failure? Suddenly things made perfect sense. If this Forsaken was successful, he or she could claim credit for Rand's death and only Rahvin could say otherwise. If he or she failed, then no one would know he or she was there at all.

The list of suspects are short and I will limit it to those that we have previously seen in Tel'aran'rhiod. Up to that point we had only seen Moghedien, Lanfear, Rahvin, Sammael, and Graendal in Tel'aran'rhiod. We know that all of them could be there, but some were more powerful thanothers. Moghedien and Rahvin are out because we know where they were at the time of Asmodean's death. Lanfear may or may not be dead, but the style of attack doesn't fit her. And she was very accomplished in Tel'aran'rhiod. She would have been able to kill him. But the fish and the water were dispersed by Rand, so the Forsaken could not have been too strong in Tel'aran'rhiod. That leavesSammael and Graendal.

We also know from Lord of Chaos [Chapter 6, "Threads of Woven Shadow", 133-134] that Graendaltries to convince Sammael that Rand killed Asmodean and Lanfear. We also know that, as per Moghedien, Graendal was supposed to be with Rahvin in setting the trap for Rand at Sammael's place.

In brief, my theory goes like this: Rahvin and Graendal were together when Rand tripped Rahvin's wards in Caemlyn. They Travel together to Caemlyn. Rahvin is felt, and Rand storms after him into Tel'aran'rhiod. Graendal tries to slip in some extra help but doesn't want to be noticed. (Afraid for her life.) Rand balefires Rahvin and Graendal decides to stay real low for a while, not wanting to be noticed by anyone, including the Aes Sedai. Asmodean, looking for wine, accidently finds her hiding spot and Graendal kills him to keep him from telling Rand.

This satisfies all 8 requirements of the killer:

  1. Means: The One Power. Killed quickly and quietly.
  2. Motive: To prevent Rand from discovering she was there and chasing her.
  3. Opportunity: She was there as part of Rahvin's plots, helping him. Moghedien said she would be with him.
  4. Be recognized: Asmodean would have known her and been afraid of her.
  5. Dispose of the body: The One Power could easily do it.
  6. Must know Asmodean's fate: She tried to convince Sammael of it.
  7. Reason it is kept secret: She is careful. She doesn't want Rand to learn she was there. She is afraid of him and doesn't want to be a target.
  8. Be "obvious": Once you realize that someone was in Tel'aran'rhiod helping Rahvin, it becomes obvious who it must have been.
Did she use balefire? Maybe. There are certainly indications of it. But there are many ways to killwith the One Power that are not balefire, many of those can kill just as quickly. Stopping someone's heart for example. Causing air to crush a skull. Or even a dagger of air through the brain. That would be quick, use little Power, and be less likely to be noticed by others.

Why didn't anyone else feel her use the One Power? Perhaps they did, but did not think of it. There are many times that Wise Ones and Aes Sedai use the One Power for minor things. Someone heating bath water would be completely ignored. Remember that in the Tower, Siuan didn't feel herself being shielded, didn't notice the One Power being used to take over the Tower. She dismissed channeling because everyone did it all the time. There were now several women who could channel there, many who did not know eachother. Everyone might have felt unfamiliar weaves and assumed it was another group doing some small chore.

Why not use Compulsion? Perhaps there was no time to set it up. Remember that in The Path of Daggers, Graendal has a weave ready to be used and activates it to hit Cyndane and Moghedien. She also thinks that they will be unhappy with her for her brief use of Compulsion. She is truly scared, having just seen Rand kill Rahvin and seeing Moghedien captured and helping Rand. Compulsion can be broken (Nynaeve broke Moghedien's) and she cannot be there all the time. Once it is broken, Asmodean will surely tell Rand of it, and she will be hunted by him. She does not know of the shield around Asmodean (none of the Wise Ones ever even noticed any kinds of weaves around him) and thinks that he is a traitor that deserves worse than death.

This theory also explains how the Dark One knew to send Aran'gar to Salidar to free Moghedien. Graendal sees Moghedien as a prisoner of Nynaeve. After killing Asmodean she makes her way to the Dark One and reports. Shaidar Haran is not there at the time. (She doesn't recognize him in The Path of Daggers.) The next day, Demandred visits the Dark One. (He said that many things happened yesterday.") Demandred is slightly surprised that the Dark One knows more about Asmodean's death thanhe does, but of course would never think to question the Dark One. This may be one of several reasons that a woman's body was used for Aran'gar. The Dark One knew that a "woman" who could channel under their very noses without them suspecting a thing would be very useful. Aran'gar is then sent to free Moghedien and keep an eye on those powerful enough to capture a Forsaken. Aran'gar's "headaches" may even be something that will help prepare Egwene for when they try to turn her to the Dark One. Certainly the Dark One would want someone strong enough to capture one of his CHOSEN to be turned to his side.

wotmania says: Now that is certainly a theory! I have long since been converted from "Lanfear did it!" to "Graendal did it!" This theory does an excellent job of explaining why Graendal is definitely the most likely person to have killed Asmodean. There is not much more to say here, so now I will just be quiet...


Now that is a Theory

Posted by Kainin Ashaman on 03.06.01 15:47
Ive read throught almost all of the threories, and none of them have made there point so clear and obivsouse as this one. Also on a personal note, I like asmodean So I hope that graendal didnt use balefire to kill him. That way he can be brought back into the story somehow.


Posted by kane on 15.06.01 14:36
If She could use the one power to kill Asmodean. Why not make a gate way the hell away from there???

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Posted by mjasghar on 21.06.01 08:45
Why must you torment me so?!
Lanfear killed Asmodean FULL STOP! If you unravel that theory, there is nothing we can trust!

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No, It was Aviendha!

Posted by Efreet on 24.06.01 19:04
Graendal just doens't settle the "obvious" requirement. We have no real reason to suspect her other than that she is one of the people who could have done it. Aviendha, on the other hand, was mentioned in the same chapter. Also, RJ has already said (though I only know this third hand, so its OK not to believe me) that the persistence of Rand's wounds was due to the effects of entering T'A'R in the flesh, not a second forsaken. I think it makes sense, anyway.


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Posted by Madrox Stalin on 27.06.01 21:40
Thats a very tidy theory and i think we have a winner...
Seeing though she could use her pets to slip undetected throughout the palace to maneuver for her attack etc.

And that she was composing herself, or getting her disguise ready, when Asmodean walked in on her...

A very tidy and well thought out theory

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I agree i was Graendal, but he's Alive

Posted by joraile on 14.07.01 00:37
I agree i was Graendal, but he's Alive. I think Assmodian deserved worse then death and he got it. Perhaps he is Shadar HAran, who nows.

Fish Bites

Posted by Karolus on 22.08.01 05:07
Ok. I am not saying that Robert Jordan told me or my best friend of my cousin's second girlfriend's best friend working at the local mini-mart but, I believe that the wound Rand suffers from the fish bite linger from his attack with Rahvin is simply the nature of the World of Dreams. We know that when someone or something is balefired that it is burned out of the pattern and it's actions no longer appear to have existed but the memory of them remain. Using that key piece of knowledge I purpose that what happened to Rand was simply a matter of his mind remembering that he had been attacked by Fish (he remembered Aveindha and Asmodean dead) and his mind made the wounds remain even though they should have faded. They remained because the mind can make things real in the world of dreams. And if he can use his mind to effect his own body (ie misting out, or fighting becoming an animal) it's completely possible that his mind left the wounds, Rand did not know any better about the World of Dreams to remove them with his mind. As to why they were healed, since he was in the flesh it was necessary to have them healed to removed.


Graendal did it. <-- (note the period)

Posted by Elder Haman on 06.09.01 18:48
After reading that last theory, I have no doubts any longer. I combined it with the piece of evidence that I'd concocted, and now I'm finally glad the issue is cleared up.

My bit of proof that fits with this theory is:

Asmodean's surprise at recognizing the killer is set up earlier in the book. Asmodean knows the location of only two Forsaken: Sammael and Graendal. Though he states she has dropped out of sight, his only information about her was that she was hiding quietly in Arad Doman---until he suddenly sees her in Caemlyn.

"You? [What are YOU doing HERE?]" basically.

RJ puts this bit about Graendal's location in, and also has Moghedien say Graendal was helping Rahvin. Just in time for it to be 'obvious' (his biggest requirement for the killer). It is so fresh in the mind when the murder happens, that no one could be more obvious.

Ahh but . . .

Posted by Nevman on 31.01.02 13:30
A few points against Graendal:

*Moghedien, mistress of TAR, didn't realise she [Graendal] was in TAR?!
*Fish Bites can't have been from Graendal, that was just the weird nature of TAR. This is provable.
*Aviendha, who must have been relatively near to Asmodean when he died didn't feel Saidar being channeled.
*Sammael could also have been there, and if we have a choice between two channelers with no way to separate them, but have been told we can work it out, it must be neither of them.

See my post higher up

Posted by TheUltimateReality on 02.02.02 18:00
I posted a "why nobody detected channeling" explanation in another Graendal theory above.

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Posted by Ragnarok on 11.03.02 13:13
Why not? We know that she has been spying on Lanfear,Greandal,Sammael & Rahvin. So she knew what they were up to. Ravhin agreed with Lanfear's plans but he also made some plans of his own. Maybe he didn't feel secure to take on Rhand all by him self & made an agreement with Semirhage to help him. He probably thought that Lanfear could have planned to keep Rhand for herself & to get rid of some Forsaken on the way.

I think that there definitly was another Forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod because Moghedien told Nynaeve that Ravhin didn't know much about the dreamworld. How could he create all those different traps then?

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Posted by Fain Shaii on 18.04.02 07:16
I don't think its that obvious. Surely for it to be obvious she would have been mentioned more in the first five books? I can't remember her being mentioned more then just in passing references, mainly from the other Forsaken or others wondering where she might be and what she is up to. Personally I think Graendal could have done it, in any case I think it was a female channeler because if it were a male Rand would probably have noticed, a female channeling would probably go unoticed much easier. Also backing up the fact that it was a female is that just before he is killed he isn't cold specifically instead it says "Idly - but with a shiver, too - he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man." which does not necessarily mean he was cold but could mean that he was feeling a female channeling. I don't think it could be Avienda as i've heard some people say because i don't think Asmodean would be scared of her, surely he would have no reason to fear her so much the blood would drain from his face, i think its much more likely to be one of the Forsaken and with the fact that we are supposed to think Lanfear dead, that we know where Moghedien is and that we don't really know much about Semirhage or Mesaana at this point that only really leaves Graendal.
I could be wrong but thats the way i see it...

Sorry, it doesn't work

Posted by signoff on 22.08.02 15:19
You say that it was done with the One power, well... when Greandal works together with Caddar(sammael), Moridin comes after spying at them, hidden with the One power. So if Greandal could use the one power she would have felt him.

Aviendha feeling the power

Posted by esteiner on 12.03.03 16:17
Maybe Graendal inverted the weaves. If Lanfear did it Aviendha would have felt saidar just the same. The fact that Moghedien says Graendal and Rahvin are together, that RJ says we meet the killer in book 5 and Graendal speaks as if she is sure Asmo is dead and not just missing afterwards seals it for me.

there's only one more obvious candidate...

Posted by pollofrito on 06.02.07 19:52
Davram Bashere was mentioned in the same chapter as Asmodean's death, but that's not even the obvious part.

Asmodean was killed while looking for some good wine.

Davram Bashere goes to attend Rand with two vats of, what else?, WINE!!

Robert Jordan has said (according to the FAQ) that in TAR the effects of channelling can sometimes wear off slowly, so I'm in agreement with those others who argue that this implies nobody else was in TAR with Rahvin and Rand other than Nynaeve and Moghedien.

I also agree with whoever said that Graendal would not simply hide in a wine closet to "lay low". She's a frickin Forsaken. She'd have channelled the Heck out of there. And why not channel if she'd already used the Power to kill Asmodean?

I'm not gonna go into my Davram Bashere theory here, cuz I'm pretty sure somebody already covered that one. I just thought I'd do my part to debunk the Graendal theory the way you Graendalians undid the Lanfearian Theory.

Sooner or later, I'll convince you people.

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