Mat, A Hero Reborn?!

Posted by Artur Paendrag Tanrelle on 19.01.01 00:00

Many people believe that Mat is a hero from the past. I agree, but I believe he is not Artur Hawkwing. If he was how could Artur and Mat be at the same place when he sounded the Horn. If he was, they would have the same spirit and one can not even be reborn or brought to life without a spirit. It would just be flesh and bones.

Now, back to my original theory. I think that Mat is King Aemon. First off, he was born in the same area King Aemon himself fought and died in his last stand and Rand was born the same spot Lews died. It brings together a neat and interesting coincidence. If I’m not mistaken Mat speaks the Old Tongue just as kings were taught (If I’m wrong most kings know it anyway). Mat has the courage and battle skills to equal King Aemon. Another thing is that King Aemon led the Band of the Red Hand and so does Mat. Lastly, the holes in Mat’s memory are filled with battles and, as I recall, one of the battles he remembers was the defeat of King Aemon. If he was Aemon he would certainly remember the event just like Rand remembers events with Lews. I hope you all understand this theory. If you just think about it, it makes sense!!

wotmania says: Mat might not be Aemon actually reborn (like Rand has Lews Therin’s voice in his head) but he certainly is a man like Aemon. His battle skills and memories seem to have more with what he gained in Finnland, but there are certainly similarities between Mat and the last king of Manetheren.


Comments

problem is...

Posted by Hopper on 07.04.01 00:00
his memories from that particular battle are of the kings general, not the king himself


Hopper
Property of Eniariom

To realise the value of one hour, talk to two lovers waiting to meet

It's safe to fall if you just trust the ground that you stand on.

You Fool!

Posted by knave on 12.06.01 21:47
You Fool! Why in all of blood and bloody ashes would King Aemon be linked to the wheel?! Unless you've paid attention, KINGS AND ROYALTY AND USELESS. This king was no different. True, history remembers him taking a stand in his country, but then again thats how history remembers him.

Mat's memories cover a huge range of random people. the Finn's who gave them to him though prolly picked the ones with the best battle data or something, cause somewhere he says he can remember fighting against Arthur Hawking, but also for him. He had his memories a book before he went into the doorway, so think of them as his special talent. Min has her viewings, Perrin's a wolfbrother, others can channel. Mat has his luck and his memories.

In TGH, when Mat calls the Hero's with the Horn, about a hundred or so show up. Why, in all of the bloody Creation would King Aemon be in a group of great warriors and soldiers?

Now you're a Fool!

Posted by Rathan on 17.06.01 01:51
EVERYONE is reborn, but only the Dragon, and the Heroes, come back as the same person (or almost the same)


ph34r!

One Little Problem

Posted by Eben Hopwil on 26.06.01 15:36
King Whats-his-face was a WARDER to an AES SEDEI! If Mat was King Aemon(sp?) reborn, than why is he so uneasy around Channelers? They have their similarities but the odds are to hard to beat, even with Mat's bloody luck.


Eben Hopwil

Memories

Posted by Prophet on 14.07.01 12:00
Mat's memories are not a random collection the Fin's decided to through in there. They are 'his' memories, memories from previous lives that he lived as a hero of the horn.
The dager or dager cure put holes in his memories. He asked the Fin to get rid of the holes in his memories. The Fin have to do as he says [not necesarily what he wants]. he wanted this lifes memories back, but they gave him memories from his past lives.
The memories are all about battles and wars because, dah he is a hero, and not any hero, but a General Hero. Like Hawking his hero work is leading armies, unlike brigite who was more a special forces archer type hero.
However, he canot be Hawking because he remembers fighting Hawking, and other reincarnations of Hawking in past lives. Also although they are both always Generals, they differ in style. Hawking was a strategist and purely brillant. Mat's was always a gambler {which appears to be his hero name, The Gambler} and a risk taker, and was always lucky.

Also,
Mat is Tavern, unbelievable lucky, and spoke the old tongue without knowing it before the Fin's. He has to be a Hero reborn.

Remember Suian?

Posted by Zelda Sedai on 20.08.01 18:39
Remember when the AS heal Mat? Egwene or someone asks why he says such bitter things about AS and Suian replies that men sometimes don't know themselves how they truly feel? This would be perfect in summing up the Aemon/warder conflict--imagine if answers were given at the same time a mysterious and relevant event has just occurred! I fully expect Tuon's ability wih the OP to rival Eldrene's. The focus on her strength is just as important as Aemon's bravery (btw, I think Jordan indicates that Aemon is more a general than a king because Manetheran has a Queen and her king is always her Warder--obviously very battle-ready). If Eldrene has not become Tuon, I fully expect Nyn or Egwene to have become her because, despite one's attitude toward Aemon, Eldrene was quite a woman.

Mat is not Aemon

Posted by Avatar Darkstorm on 27.09.01 12:13
One of his memories was WATCHING Aemon die at the fall of Manetheren.



Lord Avatar Darkstorm
King of the Morning
Prince of the Day
He Who Rules the Night

mmmmm

Posted by Old Cully on 29.11.01 02:22
mat is most definately many memories of his past lives as shown in pg619 of TSR in this we are shown mat falling with tree arows in him (dieing of course) he and his armie had been fighting a youngish Aedomon. and then later he remembers seeing aedomon graying dying with a spear in his back.
which shows that he was seeing it through a different persons eyes at a different time (maybe 30 years later) but it is still him just reborn

Alittle order in the chaos

Posted by raaj on 08.01.02 00:03
As noted in the previous post it was Aedomon he saw die not Aemond.

secondly his memories of the battle of Manetheren occur after his healing from the dagger wound and well before he enters the Ter'Angreal of the snakes.

thirdly, If you remember Moirane or Suian reveals that Bonwhin the last Amyrlin had betrayed Manetheren and refused to send aid because of jealousy of Eldrene's power. Now if the head of the White power had betrayed me and my people to utter destruction I might carry just a little antipathy towards AS into my next life.

I find it quite likely that Mat is Aemon, Tuon is Eldrene (she couldn't have passed her Sul'Dam tests if she couldn't wield the one power as has been explained several times now. My question then is Elaida Bonwhin?

There's Aemon's battle cry too...

Posted by Dom on 24.01.02 14:44
In EOTW, Mat used both the battle cry of Manetheren, "For the honor of the Red Eagle" and the battle cry of Aemon himself, Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!, "for the honor of the Rose of the Sun" that referred to his wife Eldrene.

During his healing, the AS translated part of what he said as orders given most likely at the last stand of Manetheren.

Something similar occurs when Mat wakes up in the tower afterward, once again ordering the army against Trollocs.

This was way before the events with the Snakes. It's only after the snakes that Mat seemed to have memories from multiple lives. Before it always related to Aemon himself (or possibly to yet to be revealed hero or Manetheren Lord very close to Aemon, but it's doubtful).

There's also Birgitte's remark that he speaks the Old Tongue like a Manetheren First Lord.

All in all, I too think it's quite likely that Mat is Aemon reborn and Tuon is Eldrene. That's would quite similar to Birgitte and Cain's incarnations meeting each other over and over again. I guess it's not impossible that Elaida was both Tetsuan and Bonwhin (the one who tried to run Hawkwing).

There's still much mystery built around what really happened at Manetheren, remember notably Loial's puzzling remark to Rand in EotW 36 that the Ogier couldn't come in time. I'm quite convinced that the bit by bit revelations about Manetheren's Fall since book 1 are hiding something important.

Now that we know Tuon can channel and has finally entered Mat's life, it will be interesting to see if Mat's screams during his Healing "I am a free man, I am no Aes Sedai meat" relates to Aemon's relationship with Eldrene or if this rather involves the Amyrlin Tetsuan and what she and the Tower may have wanted from or done to King Aemon.

Perrin - King Aemon

Posted by Misimo on 18.04.02 15:59
I belive that Perrin is King Aemon. I think this because of the fact that Perrin is building a kingdom where King Aemon's once stood.


-0-"When all else fails just remember that your not real."
"Free will is mearly an illusion that your mind uses to keep you sane. If you knew any better you would know that all of our actions are programed responses"-0-

Hmm...

Posted by Taurus76 on 10.10.02 14:04
Was any hero missing when Mat blew the Horn of Valere? If he was reborn then the Hero wouldn't have been in T'A'R and thus not be available for the Horn to call. I remember Rand listing some of the Heroes off, but I don't have the books handy.


The ever cynical...
Taurus

Why? Why? Why?

Posted by onnestabe on 31.01.03 15:22
Why does everyone want to make all the characters in the book a Hero of the Horn?

Mat is tavaren. This means the pattern uses him to steer itself towards its ultimate goal. It is very difficult for one person to change the world, which is why there are three working together right now. Although it would be difficult to change the world with one person, a person with an army that never loses (The Band of the Red Hand), memories from great warriors and generals of the past, and a way to always be able to finance the actions of his army (his luck with dice) would be able to do quite a bit in the big scheme of things. And I didn't even mention the usual benefits of tavaren that Rand and Perrin also enjoy.

Someone above mentions that Mat's memories were there before he went through the doorway. I don't think this is true, but if you can find a quote to prove it, I would love to see it. The poster also said that this was an ability such as Min's viewings or Perrin's wolfbrotherhood. I like the idea that Mat has a special ability, but I think his uncanny luck would fit the bill a bit better.

About the memories, Moiraine says the Finns get your memories and experiences from you when you go through the doorways and this causes the feeling of your skin crawling. I thought that when Mat asked for memories to plug the holes, they gave him memories from others who had gone into the land of the Finns. Why they decided to give him memories of battles, I don't know. Perhaps they like war movies and so the only memories they had to give were of battles and war. The important thing is that the memories came from the Finns, so just because he remembers Hawkwing, Aemon, or any other old kings and famous people doesn't mean he is one of these people reborn. It just means that someone who knew Hawkwing, Aemon, etc went to see the Finns one day.

I think that Mat's talents and other peculiarities are not indicators that he is a Hero reborn, but that he is tavaren and the pattern thinks he needs those attributes to fulfill his destiny.

Sorry about the long post.

Onnestabe

not Aemon

Posted by Aeilman Rand on 11.06.05 03:52
I don't think that Mat is Aemon. I think that he is one of Aemons Generals probably the original leader of the Red Hand

ummm.the band of the red hand?

Posted by Alextyphus on 28.04.06 14:30
Aemon didnt lead the band of the red hand mate--if i remember corectly we dont know wh did, but we are told that it wasnt Eamon somewhere

I can believe it.

Posted by Aourune Sedai on 24.08.06 11:50
Mat could very easily be Aemon or one of his generals. As pointed out previously, the mistrust of Aes Sedai could have something to do with their betrayal of Menetheran.

Not sure about the Tuon deal but Mat is a go.

No on the Finn/memory debate. He DID speak the old tounge periodically before he enterd the gate. Moiraine makes comments about the "old blood" running strong in the Two Rivers. And I can believe he lived at least on life in that great land. However, his memories from after the Finns are not necessarily al HIS mamories. He said he wanted the gaps in his memory filled. He didn't say by what or whose. He never said anything about wanting his own memories back. I think most of his clear memories of the past after the Finns are from various other wrriors and generals that may not even have had contact with any of his past lives.

Sorry about the tangent. I really do like your post.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shadow men talk a real good game
Every punchline has your name
You cried out and no one came to you
~Tom Petty~

Is is bad that I hear WOT references in my music collection?