Min the Finn

Posted by Arok on 23.01.01 00:00

First, for a little background...

If you recall, the Finn in the second red Ter'angreal doorway wore leather that looked suspiciously like human to Mat. Assuming it was human hide, one has to wonder where they got it. It's likely that very few Aiel who went into Rhuidean would stray through the ter’angreal, and even if they did it would be rather hard to skin one of them. So, assuming they got the flesh from elsewhere, here are a few thoughts.

It seems unlikely that the Finn can leave their world. Likely, the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends placed restrictions on the Ter'angreal . The Finn wearing the flesh of their dead just doesn't seem like something Jordan would put in. Fake leather is just silly. So the most likely possibility and the one I base this theory on is number four. I think the Finn, at least those in the second door, keep humans as slaves.

Now, which characters do we know with the Finn-like capability to read the future of the Pattern and tell what will happen? Every reading Min makes happens, just as all the Finn say or do occurs. Min's past is hazy. We know her three "aunts" raised her. Maybe her "father" found her in a mine after she somehow escaped the realm of the Finn. Or maybe her mother or another slave got her away. Anybody seen the corny live-action Super Mario Brothers movie?

Min is from the land of the Finn, hence her foresight and always being correct, like the Finn. She also has had only one viewing not come true yet, the one about Moiraine, who is in the land of the Finn.

She and Thom and Mat, others too maybe, will go into the Tower of Ghenjei to rescue Moiraine. Min for the sake of her viewing about Rand, Thom for his love for Moiraine, and Mat because he has a grudge. Only Perrin and Birgitte know about the entrance in the Tower of Ghenjei, so one of them might go as well. Moiraine isn't necessarily dead. Thom will retrieve her from danger. Min’s viewing didn't say Moiraine was dead, only that a dead woman had to be there to save Rand. Moiraine was considered dead and therefore she is this woman. I know the viewing wasn't this word-for-word, but it is a good hypothesis. Time is skewed in the gateway. Moiraine could have been bound by a Finn agreement or Oath Rod in the gateway before they could even move in the real world. This would go along with the severing of the Warder bond. Maybe, too, since time is skewed and Moiraine knew what was going to happen, she requested Lan's bond to be transferred. The Finn could do it, after all. Moiraine is alive, possibly enslaved, and she will be rescued by Thom, at the least. If you see any blatant holes in this, I'd like to know.

wotmania says: First, it was not the Finn who somehow transferred Lan’s bond from Moiraine - Moiraine arranged for his bond to be passed on should she die (or be stilled, which seems to be what most people think happened). I do not know how likely it is that Min somehow escaped a Finn slave camp, but I suppose it is as good an explanation as any I can think of...


Min's Power

Posted by Knave on 28.03.01 00:00
Min's limited power to tell the future based on aura's around people she sees, is simply that. a power. Theres no reason why. she just can. Why does Mat remember the old tongue before he ever goes to the Waste? Because he can. Why can Perrin and Elyas speak to the wolves? because they can. Why can Hurin smell violence? Because he can. Someone ( i forget who exactly ) stated, in the books, that ' Old skills are being remembered', such as Wolfbrothers, as well as sniffers. Why is Min's power any different? Think of it like an Aiel. She can, because she can.


Posted by Rathan on 16.06.01 16:02
I think you have made one HUGE mistake in this theory. You say that Min can see her visions because she is from the land of the Finns. That makes no difference, as unless she is a Finn, being in the Finnland would not matter one way or another. If all you had to do was go to Finnland, people would be jumping through doorways left and right, so that they could see the future.



Posted by Arok Manok on 06.07.01 01:58
It made sense when I was writing it, though it didn't come out as I wished. I still think there's a connection between Min and the Finns.

Arok Manok - Ex-admin Extraordinaire
Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord

I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now

good call

Posted by chumpy5 on 26.07.01 19:17

This has nothing to do with anything, but....

Posted by Arylaina on 13.08.01 03:03
Did anyone else reading the posts find it funny that chumpy5 typed all in caps??? (Hmm, a DO wannabe? just kidding)

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Nothing in relation

Posted by earth_spinner on 10.09.01 08:45
How come there are no theories about Aviendha??????


Money talks sense in a language all nations understand

not that I agree but....

Posted by Telamon on 05.01.02 07:00
wasnt there a line when mat was in the second doorway, something about how wise he was to ask for leave taking? this implies that just because you can get in and ask for 3 requests, doesnt mean you will get out. perhaps all those who go in are trapped there, which would fit with the theory quite nicely about becomeing slaves. maybe not slaves exactly, but definatly trapped there. mat accidently asked to leave, therefore he got out, but the finns killed him for it. (and YES, this is where mat died and lived again. although there is much speculation about whether or not he really died there, the aelfinn specifically said he must go to ruidean to die and live again...)

Re: Min the Finn

Posted by gnarzz on 28.01.02 15:37
Perhaps the Finn have discovered a process for making pleather and the Finn was really wearing something from Fredericks of Hollywood?
What do you think?

Yay Telamon

Posted by Elder Haman on 07.02.02 04:20
"What was asked is given, the price must be paid."

Lots of people used to visit the Finns back in the day (they say so). And just like they killed Mat, they probably killed some other dude who asked for something. They wouldn't need to go anywhere.

right on !!!

Posted by bloody_ashes on 15.03.02 10:23
yo, your theory is a poor one ... but you're right on the money. i guess that the finn's decided to have a love-child between themselves in the waking world and left her to rot in Baerlorn, or wherever Min was picked up.

i'm sold on the idea that Min is a Finn because ...

Three sets of slitted eyes lifted from him - reluctantly, it seemed - and studied the air above his head. - Mat, tSR ch.14, p.252
"To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!"
"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"
"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!"
Together they howled like steam escaping under pressure. "Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!" - the Aelfinn, to Mat, tSR ch.15, p.253

ITs just too coincidence that they look above Mat's head, just as Min looks there to see things/auras ... her method and interpretation may be a little askew because the Finn's only speak in clever rhetoric, instead of describing thing literally as Min does.

besides all that ... their names rhyme.

Min is a Finn.

Ladies and Gents, I just found out that...

Posted by Arok Manok on 18.04.02 15:15
This theory was originally posted on the old site on April 28, 2000. (The old site at www.geocities.com/wotmania I think. It was the second theory in the Misc. category.) I do so love hitting that mildstone.

It's true that other people come there and they could just be wearing the skin of people who came there before, but unless there's another way in, very few people have been coming in lately. Berelain's line held the one doorway for years and the other was in Rhuidean. I have wondered how many of the Aiel who never returned died because of the ter'angreal near the heart, not in the glass columns, but in any case, very few humans have been going to the land of the Finn. As it were, it seems unlikely that the one would have a human leather vest thingy if it were so hard to come by, not to mention so old. I still believe that they have human slaves, and I also believe that the point where the Finn looks over Mat's head further cements the theory.

I'm gonna be throwing the link all over the place when this theory is proven true.

Arok Manok - Ex-admin Extraordinaire
Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord

I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now

you could be half right

Posted by The Blademaster on 15.09.02 01:32
I think you're on the right track. What I think really happened is that a Finn had a child with one of the slave women, and she escaped through the tower of Ghenjei somehow, which happens to be nearby Baerlon(sort of) and then when she got to Baerlon she found Min's "father" and asked him to take care of her. That explains how she can see the auras, but only understands a few of them, and why she doesn't see them on everybody.

Also, Min only said that Rand would fail without a woman who is dead: those were her words, but it implies that a woman who she thinks is dead will be there, and that could be either Lanfear(who is probably still alive if Moiraine is) or Moiraine that I can think of. The other way it can mean any number of people, including the heroes that come when Mat blows the horn, since it's said that the horn has to be there at the last battle, and they are all dead.

"The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!"

I agree with Blademaster

Posted by Mr Wealth on 08.10.02 10:50
I was thinking as Blademaster said, a Finn had a girl with a woman who escaped. I really enjoy the connection between Min and the Finn, but I don't think Min is a Finn in disguise because in Min's point of view, there is never any allusion to Finn.
That's all.

<== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes

min fin

Posted by daughter of the ten moons on 10.10.02 05:23
DOes Min even know who her parents are? She was raised by her aunts wasn't she? I think she is part finn and doesnt know it.

Daughter of the Ten Moons
Mat's right hand girl
"Even dolls have a limit, and Timmy has reached his. What he needs right now is a big Martimmy"
- Timmy, to his Princess

Min and Mat

Posted by Manetherendrelle on 11.10.02 15:13
I agree that Min may be part Finn (based on whichever theory). It would also nicely fit into the wild theories about Min's aging or not: maybe Finns simply live much longer than humans, so a half-Finn would also have a longer than normal life.

Another important point to make is about Mat: the point where he died and lived again was NOT in Ruidhean (there he ALMOST died), but in Caemlyn. There he really died in the attack by Rahvin, but was revived after Rahvin was thouroughly balefired (remember balefire burns out the thread from the pattern, undoing actions of the victim for the burnback time, so Rahvins attack was undone: no attack - no casualties)

I think your right

Posted by shadowspinner on 13.06.03 15:03
It would make sense for Min's mother to be a Finn. Because we know about her dad, I remember reading that she worked in the mines with him at one point and thats why she's a tomboy. Later her dad died and her aunts took care of her. But her mother is never mentioned. So I do think is half Finn. It seems to fit well.

Shadow Spinner
Spin nightmares out of shadows


Posted by firstweaver on 01.08.03 13:50
Shadowspinner and Blademaster are correct, I mean, it all makes sense when you look at it that way.

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Bonded to Daniel Gaidin
High Priestess of academic theories
Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City
'Helluo librorum'
'Bene legere saecla vincere.'

Mat didn't die in Caemlyn. His death was undone.

Posted by Arok Manok on 11.11.03 12:25
Effectively, Mat's death never occurred in Caemyln, because the Balefire prevented it from happening. On the other hand, he strangled to death in Rhuidean, and was ressucitated by Rand via, I think, CPR. He died and lived again.

Quick question for all the part-Finn people: If Min's part-Finn, how come she looks wholly human, if a bit boyish? Would it not be odd to show no sign of her father, as it were, other than her ability?

Still, since Min's ability has nothing to do with the Power, and has not been seen elsewhere like other Old Things (Dreaming and Wolfbrothers), it seems likely that it is tied to the Finns in some way, whatever that way may be, and if we ever see a trip through the Tower of Ghenji, as so many (myself chief among them early on) have predicted, I would be surprised to not see her involved in some way, along with Thom, Mat, Olver and either Perrin or Birgitte.

Arok Manok - Ex-admin Extraordinaire
Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord

I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now


Posted by Nierlisse on 03.03.04 11:51
The Finns in that doorway that Mat went through in Rhuidean (or whatever) had the leather straps, right?

NOT SO! For the Finns in the doorway in Tear.

The Finns in Tear were the ones who gave him all the correct answers about his future, not the ones in Rhuidean.

So for your theory to be correct, the Finns in TEAR would have to have slaves and one would have been Min (or her mother, or whatever) and if they weren't wearing leather straps made out of skin, we can't assume they had slaves at all. If The Finns would even make clothing out of their slaves...ew.


"What can I say? I did it all for the wookies."
"The wookies?!?"
"The wookies."

Not to spoil any hopes you had...

Posted by Exitialis on 18.02.05 16:01
but Min isn't connected at all to the Aelfinn, according to RJ.


but wait

Posted by blood_and_ashes on 28.03.05 18:59
Moraine wasnt the only central female character presumed dead at this time, so was Lanfear and since Lanfear has been reincarnated by the dark one she will help Rand win the last battle.


Posted by Lord Gaidin on 03.02.06 22:05
Now i only see one problem with you theory. Is it not true that Rand also believes Morgase to be dead? So could she not be the woman in Min's viewing?

"I've got to go back to drinking now."
-Samantha Brown


Posted by Valintine on 07.08.08 21:49
Siting here reading all these comments and when you get to the end the last three counteract all previus quite throurly

I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!

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