Asmodean's Killer

Posted by al'Telchar and Tekko Kobushi on 20.01.01 00:00

After reading Winters' Heart (as well as the rest of the series...). I think I finally hold the solution of the identity of Asmodean's Killer: Slayer!

Here are the arguments of my belief:

First the fact that we know beforehand or during WH (recap. on what others said):

  1. Asmodean knew the killer and was afraid of him.
  2. It was a swift death
  3. Went undetected
  4. There was no body
  5. The Dark One knew that he died the Final Death
  6. Isam and Luc went missing before the Forsaken got back (that argument for later use)

New facts from WH (end of the "Out of thin air" chapter):
  1. Isam/Luc can step in and out from Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh.
  2. His master is the DO
  3. Forsaken have to beg him to "use" his service

Here are the questions that have to be answered (by Knarfling):
  1. Means (how it was done)
  2. Motive (why)
  3. Opportunity (had to be in Caemlyn at the time or have a way of getting there.)
  4. Recognized by Asmodean (and scared him)
  5. Disposed of the body
  6. Knows Asmodean's fate
  7. The reason the death is kept secret. (why doesn't Jordan reveal it?)
  8. Be "obvious" (as per Robert Jordan)

    1, 3 & 5.    By the fact found at the beginning of the post (x), it is fairly easy to answer: Slayer went to Caemlyn in Tel'aran'rhiod (where time is relative), opened a portal where Asmodean was (still have to figure out how, but we don't know everything about the Dream World), pulled him in in the flesh and killed him there undisturbed.

With that scenario, we solve (b), (c) and (d) for sure. "His voice hung in the air" as the portal closed. Undetected asneither Saidin nor Saidar were channeled, and we have no indication that a portal made by a dream walker can be detectable. And finally, since the body is in Tel'aran'rhiod, it's not in the real world.

    2.    Why did he kill him? Because the DO asked him to do it, since Asmodean was a weakling and a treator. And, from WH, we know that Slayer obeys Sightblinder (y).

    4.    Recognized by Asmodean: Here argument (f) enters. The Forsakens seem to know about Slayer as they have met the man (or the 2 men if you prefer):

"The other Chosen were not that careful. [...]" (Still at the end of 'Out of Thin Air') even if it wasn't explicitly said anywhere else. So since Slayer was created between the birth of Rand and the death of Asmodean (he was with Perrin before it happened), there is a possibility that Asmo and Isam/Luc met before and by the argument (z), Forsaken were somewhat afraid of him (you don't have to beg if you're not scared of someone). Put some glue in there and you explain argument (a).

    6.    It isn't said anywhere that Slayer knows about that, but the DO knows. How? He asked Slayer to kill Asmo, which he did and reported back. The DO knows that it is a final death (e) and it is mentionned countless of times that you die the Final Death if you die in T'A'R (thanx Hopper for telling it several times to Perrin

    7.    Why conceal it? As RJ said in several chats, he really likes to look at the unending squabbling over that so he continues to hold back the information.

    8.    With the elements we learn during WH and some glue at the right places, the solution becomes pretty straight forward...

Pento McGreno says: How quaint. An Asmo theory with proof. What next, someone claiming Taim isn't Demandred?



Oh...


Comments

No way José!

Posted by Vercingetorix on 23.03.01 00:00
Alright, I think you are forgetting something. RJ said that we should have been able to figure out who killed Asmodean the moment we read the passage. And if that wasn't enough, by the end of Lord of Chaos we should DEFINITELY be able to do so. And since the last time we saw Slayer was near the end of TSR riding on his horse as Luc out of Emond's Field with an arrow through his chest. Tell me how his fleeing with an arrow in his chest makes it obvious he's the killer a whole book later. Also, about this stepping out of the dream thing. I got the impression that he just kind of appears out of thin air(Hence the chapter name) and does not open a portal. So he could only really take with him to TAR what he was carrying(Like the crossbow bolt he stole from the tower after killing the greyman). Finally, I really don't think that all of the forsaken knew of Slayer, especially Asmodean. Lanfear said that he had just been hiding in some safe little spot not doing anything until she drug him out of there so she could use him to teach Rand. Now, if Asmodean hasn't been doing anything, what chance is there that he met Slayer? Also, we don't find out that the forsaken know of Slayer until WH. The only person we knew that was evil that knew of him was Fain. So how does that qualify as being obvious by the end of Lord of Chaos? It doesn't! All this stuff was thrown in there to explain how other people had died(like the greyman and the two black ajah), not how Asmodean died. I doubt RJ would hold such crucial evidence secret until now. That's ridiculous. Especially since Slayer is not even mentioned in Lord of Chaos, how could there be any more evidence to support his being the killer? No, Slayer did not do it. I will not go into who did do it or wy it is obvious, the theory post holds more than enough evidence for that.


Vercingetorix

Theory Post Admin

I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck. Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.

Graendal killed Asmodean

Posted by Bors on 02.04.01 00:00
Graendal killed Asmodean. The evidence is in the theory below.

Graendal
Submitted by Raolin Darksbane

"The chill that Asmodean felt was probably saidar. He recognized his killer - so it was probably a Forsaken. Lanfear is presumably dead - she later reappears as Cyndane. Moghedien is a prisoner. That leaves Graendal, Semirhage, and Mesaana. Graendal had been present in Caemlyn before and was party to the four Forsaken plot against Rand. She later speaks as if she is pretty sure that Asmodean is dead when others are unsure. IIRC, she talks about being named Nae’blis after Asmo’s death. Why? What has she done to merit it? Kill Asmodean. Also, she later loots Sammael’s palace after his death - the comparison to looting Rahvin’s palace is striking. I would definitely accuse Graendal."

Graendal???

Posted by al_Telchar on 03.04.01 00:00
I personnally think that there are a few things that doesn't add up with the theory that Graendal did it.

First, about the chill. The way it was described, a forsaken can make the difference between a normal chill and Saidar-induced chill. I don't have the book at hand so bare with me for a moment. At a point, a Forsaken (Demandred???) held a meeting and there was a quote that went along those lines:
"He felt the goose-bumps all over him, so he knew that {insert the name of the female Forsaken here} was arriving through a portal EVEN BEFORE IT WAS VISIBLE."

Maybe he knew since he was expecting it, but I don't think he would have confounded the 2 chills even if he wasn't expecting visits.

Second: If it was Graendal, she channeled her way in (since she wasn't in T'A'R in the flesh, it would have been stoopid from her) and with the amount of Channeling women around, that much Saider channeled wouldn't have gone unnoticed (remember, modern A.S. didn't know how to travel yet)

Third: How Asmo was killed? Again, Saidar must have been used since Asmo died the final Death, so that leaves Balefire. Wrong again, as that much Saidar (remember that Moraine was one of the strongest A.S at the time and she barely could channel a thread thin bar...) wouldn't have gone unnoticed either. "[...] A beacon for channeling women miles around [...]" as Mog. put it once.

Inverted weaving? That fails to answer the obviousness of R.J. since we never heard about it at that time.

I admit that my theory may not be perfect, but Graendal's also have some big flaws to deal with...

Catch you all later


He Who Comes With The Oosquai

Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire

Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon

Proud poster of the "Slayer Killed Asmo" theory

Response to Graendal???

Posted by Vercingetorix on 05.04.01 00:00
The chill that Asmodean felt may not have been from Saidar. That is just speculation. The biggest unknown here is the distance. We have no idea how far away the wine closet was from where everyone else was. We also don't know how far Asmodean was from the closet when he felt the chill. A small weave would not be felt from very far away, and since we don't know the distance we cannot say for certain saidar would have been felt. Also, as far as I know Aviendha was the only channeling woman around, so it is distinctly possible she might have been far away enough not to notice it. And what's to say Graendal wasn't in the flesh? Maybe she was. I am not sure. Either way she would have had to channel some sort of gateway to leave TAR or to get there unless she was hiding in the closet for a while. The biggest argument for Graendal though is there is no evidence against her. yes, not all of the evidence is rock solid and some of it can be argued as not true, but there is NOTHING that says Graendal didn't do it. My main point was that Slayer couldn't ahve done it. While I agree that Graendal did it I wasn't here to argue that as everything has pretty much been said in the theory post about Graendal anyway. By the way, does anyone have any response yet to my slayer comments from before? I'm waiting...


Vercingetorix

Theory Post Admin

I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck. Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.

100%

Posted by cauthons_dice on 05.04.01 00:00
Finally!!! I've been a huge believer in this theory for a really long time. It's about time someone put it together choc-full of sensical explainations and more proof thatn 181 rum...well done!!

Short break

Posted by al_Telchar on 06.04.01 00:00
I can't really argue anymore... for now! My last reading dates from a while ago and I don't have the books near at hand (damn my brother who lives 400 miles away...)

But I don't take that Graendal did it for granted.

YOU'LL BE HEARING FROM ME SOON! MWAHAHAHAHAH...

err... I mean:

Catch ya all later


He Who Comes With The Oosquai

Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire

Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon

Proud poster of the "Slayer Killed Asmo" theory

Actually Vercingetorix, I do . . .

Posted by Nevman on 11.04.01 00:00
Cutting down a four page 'essay' of why it was Slayer (My own) into a couple of paragraphs should be 'fun', but I'll give it a go . . .

We knew Slayer could step into and out of TAR from TSR. We also knew he was the DO's best assasin, he was sent to kill Fain instead of sending a normal Myrddraal. Therefore, he is as obvious as Graendal. The main reason I dispute Graendal is that before LOC there is no evidence to put her higher than Sammael. If you know of something in the first five books that puts Graendal higher on the list than Sammael, please tell me, but I have never managed to find anything.

WH also proves that Slayer can take things with him (the candle and poisoned daggers), and being an assasin this isn't that big a leap to make anyway. At the very least he must be able to take clothes (the fast get-a-way after Perrin shot him in TAR) and a dagger for the assasinations.

And Balefire and Traveling are not small weaves, they take a strong channeler and so can be felt from quite a distance away. The gateway is proved by Rand sensing the renegade Asha'man leaving in POD and Balefire was proved earlier by al_Telchar.

But if anyone is interested in my full reasons or quotes on why it was Slayer and NOT Graendal then I'll post them here as a theory. The older posts on the forum I visit have disappeared.

Nevman...

Posted by Vercingetorix on 11.04.01 00:00
The problem though si that Slayer ran off with an arrow in him. That was the LAST we saw of him UNTIL Winter's Heart. Seeing as how he was absent for 1200 pages before Asmodean's death, and 2000 afterwards kind of makes me think he isn't too obvious. And there are things that make Graendal more likely than Sammael. Here are those things:

First off, Sammael has been wiating in Illian all this time in case Rand shows up so he can lay an ambush. As soon as he gets there Sammael lets Graendal and Rahvin know(and lanfear though she's toast) and they come in and attack Rand. That was their plan.

Secondly, Sammael goes off when he is COMPLETEY out of control about how he is going to kill Asmodean next time he sees him, completely full of rage and not in control of himself. This is in LOC.

Thirdly, Graendal tries to convince everyone that Asmodean is dead, and thinks to herself that she is suprised to hear something in her voice, can't remember what that was though.

Fourthly, Graendal doesn't recognize Shaidar Harian when he comes to her in POD. Earlier she thought to herself how she alone knew she had made her own secret trip to Shayol Ghul and been all but promised to be Naeblis. now she had to go before LOC because SH was there in the very beginning, which took place the day after Asmodean's death. So logically she went before the day after Asmodean's death. And since she doesn't have anything going for her in FOH to get her to almost be promised Naeblis she obviously did something to get that. I think killing one of the DO most powerful servants who was a traitor(granted he's one of the weak forsaken but he's still a forsaken) would warrant that. nothing else would.

So since Slayer was last seen with an arrow through his chest fleeing and there are all sorts of things to make Graendal the killer, I think she is more likely the killer.

Now, about Slayer carrying stuff. Sure he can probably carry small items like that. but could he carry a dead body? I highly doubt it. And could he kill Asmodean with the speed of what might be balefire? Not a chance. And there's also the problem that Asmodean did not meet Slayer before. RJ said this at the dutch fantasy fair thing. here is the question and answer:

Q (by Emma): Did Slayer meet Asmodean before he was killed? No.. am, no. Not in the books

And given with the information in the books this is how it plays out. All of the forsaken know of the evil that is Slayer, meaning how his evil is old and stuff like that(what birgitte told Perrin). As of the end of WH Slayer has met all of the forsaken. Now this means all fo the current forsaken. He didn't meet Asmodean before he got whacked.

Another thing, I don't think that the DO really considers Fain that big of a deal. He's more of a minor annoyance. Sure he's dangerous and a traitor, but it's not like he's that awful, especially by TSR. Sure he gets worse and worse later on but he's still not someone for the DO to really pay attention to at that point. I think i covered all of your points. Care to respond?


Vercingetorix

Theory Post Admin

I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck. Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.

Sure, it's always good to hear someone else's opinion

Posted by Nevman on 12.04.01 00:00
So you're saying that no matter what you use, you can't kill someone faster than with Balefire? It is possible to kill someone quickly with a knife if you know where to stab them.

Rand's sword was detected by Sammael in ACOS, and that uses a small amount of OP. Balefire on the other hand uses a lot, Aviendha(sp?) would surely have sensed it and/or any gateways.

And those two question on the transcript, I just want to point out the wording of the question (well, the first one at least, the second is slightly mangled ):

"Did Slayer meet Asmodean BEFORE he was killed?"

emphaisis mine, but this just shows that Slayer and Asmodean hadn't met BEFORE then. If the 'before' hadn't been put in the question it would almost definatly have been RAFO'd as it would either cross out a suspect or prove a murderer.

It's the second one that is important though, at least the answer is as Aan'Allein/Sander mistyped the question:

Q: Have ALL the Forsaken of Slayer?
A: Yes, they've heard of him. Slayer is not old in the way they are. Slayer does not come the Age of Legends, Slayer is something much newer.

again emphaisis mine (can we use bold and italics here?) but the question was about all the Forsaken, and they'd all heard of him, not the evil that is him, which is in fact not that old, no way near as old as themselves. And being an assasin for the DO, it shouldn't have been that big a leap to presume that the Forsaken would have found out about one of the tools at their disposal.

And Fain is a big deal to the DO. He is a 'renegade' and the Dark side doesn't accept failure. The Do spend a lot of energy in creating Fain, distilling his soul twice I think so that he could sense the Dragon Reborn.

Why does Slayer have to appear in later books to make it 'obvious'? It isn't obvious, the reason we're arguing now. But RJ could have simply been removing suspects in the later books until WH.

Moghedien knew Rand was attacking Rahvin, your saying Graendal knew as well. If Graendal knew, Rahvin must have known and called her in t help. If he called in Graendal, he would have also called in the last surviving member of the plot, Sammael. The plan was to attack Rand from behind with a link. It would have worked just as well as Rahvin's as it would have at Sammael's. It never happened though. As for the LOC and later events, how can they help make Sammael look less obvious when Asmodean died?

Graendal also was certain Lanfear was dead and certain Moghedien was dead. Lanfear was only missing though and Moghedien captured. So if she was wrong about them, why does she have to be right about Asmodean? Sure, she was right. But it still wasn't more than an opinion in the end because of the other two.

To sum up a very incoherent response
1)Sammael would have been there if Graendal was, so not obvious.
2)quotes from LOC and later don't make Sammael sound less obvious at the moment of Asmodean's death.
3)Graendal was also sure about Lanfear and Moghedien, but was wrong on at least one with no way of knwoing on the second.
4)Slayer doesn't have to appear if the others are being put down.
5)ALL the Forsaken had heard of Slayer.
6)Slayer hadn't met Asmodean BEFORE Asmodean died.
7)Fain was important - alot of time and energy had been invested into him and failure/renegades normally = death.
Daggers with poison can kill as quickly as Balefire if used by an expert.

I think I covered all _your_ points, your turn.

Alright, challenge accepted.

Posted by Vercingetorix on 12.04.01 00:00
>So you're saying that no matter what you use, you can't kill someone faster than with Balefire? It is possible to kill someone quickly with a knife if you know where to stab them.

This is what I am saying. The way Asmodean's death was described was exactly like Belal's death. now, I am not SAYING that Asmodean was balefired because I don't think it matters. but I doubt even Slayer could kill someone fast enough so that his voicer rang in the air as deatht ok him or whatever he said.

>Rand's sword was detected by Sammael in ACOS, and that uses a small amount of OP. Balefire on the other hand uses a lot, Aviendha(sp?) would surely have sensed it and/or any gateways.

Aviendha is still being trained in the power. Plus we have no idea as to what the distance was between them. plus, Sammael was looking for Rand channeling. Aviendha wasn't looking for anyone channeling.

>And those two question on the transcript, I just want to point out the wording of the question (well, the first one at least, the second is slightly mangled ):

"Did Slayer meet Asmodean BEFORE he was killed?"

>emphaisis mine, but this just shows that Slayer and Asmodean hadn't met BEFORE then. If the 'before' hadn't been put in the question it would almost definatly have been RAFO'd as it would either cross out a suspect or prove a murderer.

But if Asmodean meets Slayer for the first time as he is being killed why did he say "You, no!" If he had never met the guy he wouldn't have had the blood drain from his face and make him shout that.

>It's the second one that is important though, at least the answer is as Aan'Allein/Sander mistyped the question:

>Q: Have ALL the Forsaken of Slayer?
A: Yes, they've heard of him. Slayer is not old in the way they are. Slayer does not come the Age of Legends, Slayer is something much newer.

>again emphaisis mine (can we use bold and italics here?) but the question was about all the Forsaken, and they'd all heard of him, not the evil that is him, which is in fact not that old, no way near as old as themselves. And being an assasin for the DO, it shouldn't have been that big a leap to presume that the Forsaken would have found out about one of the tools at their disposal.

But just because they heard of him doers not mean they've met him or know what he looks like. Again, there are a lot of assumptions going on around here.

>And Fain is a big deal to the DO. He is a 'renegade' and the Dark side doesn't accept failure. The Do spend a lot of energy in creating Fain, distilling his soul twice I think so that he could sense the Dragon Reborn.

Hmmm, yes, I can see that I suppose. I will give you this point.

>Why does Slayer have to appear in later books to make it 'obvious'? It isn't obvious, the reason we're arguing now. But RJ could have simply been removing suspects in the later books until WH.

Look, RJ said it should be obvious the moment we read it. Slayer was not in the last 1200 pages and he had just run with an arrow through his chest. All of the other viable suspects, Sammael, Graendal, Semirhage, and Mesaana were all in that book. no wait, I don't think Semirhage OR Mesaana were even seen in it, at least not to any great detail at all. But Graendal Sammael Lanfear and Rahvin all were, with lots of information about them in that book. that makes them the best suspects. Plus RJ said after POD that if we couldn't figure it out after FOH, we should CERTAINLY be able to figure it out by now. There is STILL no mention of Slayer at all. As far as we know he's still got an arrow through his chest somewhere in the two rivers.

>Moghedien knew Rand was attacking Rahvin, your saying Graendal knew as well. If Graendal knew, Rahvin must have known and called her in t help. If he called in Graendal, he would have also called in the last surviving member of the plot, Sammael. The plan was to attack Rand from behind with a link. It would have worked just as well as Rahvin's as it would have at Sammael's. It never happened though. As for the LOC and later events, how can they help make Sammael look less obvious when Asmodean died?

What I am saying is Graendal and Rahvin were waiting in Caemlyn for Sammael's signal. So she was already there. rahvin was COMPLETELY not expecting Rand to attack, so he would not have had time to send a message to Sammael. Sammael however has been expecting Rand for the last few weeks, ready to send for help at a moments notice. The events in LOC show that Graendal made the trip to SG, which you haven't addrressed yet. You might want to address that point, yes? Secondly, Sammael in his rage said when he found Asmodean he would kill him, meaning he thought he was still alive.

>Graendal also was certain Lanfear was dead and certain Moghedien was dead. Lanfear was only missing though and Moghedien captured. So if she was wrong about them, why does she have to be right about Asmodean? Sure, she was right. But it still wasn't more than an opinion in the end because of the other two.

Well, we still don't know if Lanfear died or not. Everyone THOUGHT she was dead. She surely heard about the great battle at the docks and deduced she was dead. Also, didn't Graendal only say that MAYBE moggy was dead? She saw Nynaeve feed her something and then she disappeared. Who knows what's become of her now.

>To sum up a very incoherent response
1)Sammael would have been there if Graendal was, so not obvious.

Not if Graendal was already there.

>2)quotes from LOC and later don't make Sammael sound less obvious at the moment of Asmodean's death.

Maybe not, but they make Graendal more likely in my opinion.

>3)Graendal was also sure about Lanfear and Moghedien, but was wrong on at least one with no way of knwoing on the second.

She said maybe(at least I think she did)

>4)Slayer doesn't have to appear if the others are being put down.

Yeah he does. I hadn't thought about Slayer since TSR until Wh came out. he was an unimportyant character as far as I knew.

>5)ALL the Forsaken had heard of Slayer.

Heard, not met. And whose to say which kind of all he meant?All as in all of all as in all currently alive.

>6)Slayer hadn't met Asmodean BEFORE Asmodean died.

Then he wouldn't recognize him.

>7)Fain was important - alot of time and energy had been invested into him and failure/renegades normally = death.
Daggers with poison can kill as quickly as Balefire if used by an expert.

Okay

>I think I covered all _your_ points, your turn.

Address the Shayul Ghul comment by Graendal, plus these ones...




Vercingetorix

Theory Post Admin

I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck. Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.

Challenge?! I didn’t even get a chance to do the gauntlet thing

Posted by Nevman on 14.04.01 00:00
But if you don’t think Asmodean was Balefired, doesn’t it destroy the point of the argument? Anything could have killed him then as long as it was quick. But anyway . . .
You don’t think a dagger could kill instantaneously? OK then, I can’t see any way to convince you of that (I just believe it can) but with no body or blood found, Slayer could have taken him into TAR as he stabbed him. This would cut off any extra sound and kill him, so giving the effect of instantaneous death, words hanging in the air. Is this any easier to believe?

Distance, um, I’m most used to arguing this point from the point of view of someone that believed that Graendal stayed close to the fountain, gating out in front of Asmodean. But anyway. Asmodean “drifted away from Mat and Aviendha”, so walking slowly. We are hearing his thoughts as he walks, and they aren’t that long or many, so I think he didn’t walk far. He was looking for the pantry, but hadn’t found it. So nothing can really be gained from that. I suppose in the end though not much is really said on how far he goes.

But you do have to wonder why he didn’t try to defend himself. He may have been too weak to challenge Rand, but he survived an attack by trollocs. I therefore suggest that the reason is he was afraid Rand would sense it, an ingrained fear so instinct didn’t overcome it. If he was afraid to channel, then they must have been fairly close to Rand or his quarters. And Rand is looking down at Mat and Aviendha though a window, so she must have been as close unless Asmodean went upstairs to find a pantry. Now Aviendha is strong in the OP, one of the strongest four in the White Tower (I know she isn’t part of the WT ) and strength plays a big part in how far someone can sense the use of the OP. She is also a quick study, which also has a strong correlation with Strength. Therefore, with Rand being able to sense as far as he can, and afraid that the Asha’man might sense him if he was much closer to them in WH when he visits Cairhien (he was about half the city away I think, and a palace is a lot smaller than a city) then it shouldn’t be too unreasonable to presume that they would have sensed the large amounts being channeled even if they weren’t ‘looking’ for it.

But in the prologue of TGH, Ishamael (At least I'm pretty sure it was him) showed all the Darkfriends an image of Rand, Perrin and Mat. So the Forsaken might . . . no, you'll probably disagree with that one. But how many people do you know that can step out of thin air without channeling? It wouldn't have taken a genius to work out who it was, especially if he was brandishing a dagger or two at the same time.

As for obvious, at the time of publishing RJ said that the majority of letters he got were wrong. We're still arguing four books later, so it can't be _that_ obvious. But as an argument - why would Graendal be there? They had been taunting him on Sammael's behalf for ages, before he even got out of the waste. Do you really believe that Graendal would have spent that much time waiting round with Rahvin? It must have been weeks between the first attack and the time Rand attacked Rahvin, and there is no way that Graendal was with Rahvin the whole time. For a start they don't trust each other enough, plus Graendal loves her 'servants' too much to be away from them that long.

And did anything happen in POD to help with this? I can’t remember it if it did. Everything you’ve said so far happened in LOC and can be used just as easily to show that Sammael didn’t do it and Graendal didn’t know what she was talking about as it can to promote Graendal.

And I fail to see the significance of Graendal going to SL a couple of times before Demandred told them of the DO's plans. The DO wasn't there each time as far as I recall, so she couldn't have found out about Asmodean that way, if that is what you're getting at. But she must have eyes and ears with Rand if she knew about Lanfear’s disappearance, and so she would also know about Asmodean's disappearance. She then presumed that they were both dead. And Sammael’s rage is all very well, but this is still LOC. It doesn’t help separate the two during TFOH.

You're right about Moghedien though, at least the first time. But she also said it again to Sammael when he said he had been named Nae'blis, and said it with even more conviction.
LOC, chapter 23, “To Understand A Message”. p499.
“Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be too.”
That is the one I base my claim on, she is not in control of the conversation like last time.

My main argument against Graendal though is that she isn’t obvious (rather like your one against Slayer) because at the end of TFOH Sammael is just as likely to have been there and done it as Graendal. Two channelers, both have someone who could sense them and they can’t be told apart without something from a later book. If you could convince me that Sammael definitely couldn’t have been there then you’ll have me almost convinced it was Graendal. But as I see it, if Graendal was there, so was Sammael. And if he was there, there is no way to say which one did it, which equals not obvious.

If RJ thought it was obvious, as he does, he could have been providing clues by crossing off suspects. He didn’t want to paint a big sign saying ‘This person did it’, so he could have. At this point though, 8 years or so after it happened, he could have decided it was about time he gave a bigger hint.
And as for the arrow wound, what about the Black Ajah? Or, Asmodean is a very important target, the DO might have ordered Slayer to do it anyway, he could have just had a bandage around his chest at the time.
But if I can use his appearance in WH (Yes, not obvious, but the truth non the less, so does show that it probably happened, making it look more likely, if not more obvious) Slayer wasn’t wounded then, so probably _was_ healed.

If you want to get into a debate about what ‘all’ RJ meant, we might as well debate RJ’s definition of ‘obvious’. Does he mean obvious to everyone, obvious to people with an IQ of 170, obvious to people who can read minds or just obvious to people who already know how the series is going to end?! Or we could do the same for any number of things. Aan’allein believed that RJ meant Asmodean had heard of Slayer. He was there, he heard the tone and expression RJ put into those words. We weren’t. I’m pretty sure Aan’allein thinks Graendal did it, so he wouldn’t have been biased.

I think that that covers everything you brought up, your turn again!

Lol, these responses are getting longer and longer!

Evidence against Slayer

Posted by Bors on 15.04.01 00:00
The Great Lord of the Dark is unable to reincarnate Asmodean. The only reason I know that this could be possible is if Asmodean had been balefired. I don’t think that Slayer has the ability to wield balefire. Therefore SLAYER DID NOT KILL ASMODEAN.

If you’re still wondering, GRAENAL KILLED ASMODEAN.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to shout.

Evidence against evidence

Posted by Nevman on 15.04.01 00:00
Ah, sorry Bors, but that is an easy one to counter. If you re-read the paragraph in question:

LOC, Prologue: The First Message, p5.
“THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT STEP SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and – could it be frustration?”

The DO is talking about Rahvin, and only Rahvin, when speaking about Balefire. Balefire doesn’t destroy a soul, the soul can and will be reborn again. It just can’t be touched by the DO. Asmodean isn’t coming back because the DO won’t bring him back, not because he can’t. He turned renegade, just like Fain, and for that he was killed.

A similarity springs to mind when thinking of this which I didn’t notice earlier (thanks Bors! ), Slayer was sent to kill Fain because he was a renegade, Asmodean is also a renegade . . . Plus, when thinking about WH, Slayer was also sent to kill the two captured Black Ajah, who were turning renegade, and the Grey Man. Basically everyone that gets captured and/or turns renegade seems to get ‘visited’ by Slayer.

Graendal in the Pantry with the Balefire

Posted by Bors on 15.04.01 00:00
If the Great Lord could reincarnate Asmodean, he would. He could have him controlled to serve the Great Lord with a mind trap. The fact is that the Great Lord can’t bring him back, not that he won’t. It’s ridiculous to think that the Great Lord wouldn’t use all of his resources. He has so far. He has reincarnated whom he can and has had captured Chosen freed.

After the conversation that you quoted between Demandred and the Great Lord, Demandred comments on the extent of the Great Lord’s knowledge concerning the death of Rhavin and Asmodean, and he is surprised to know how well informed the Great Lord is. The reason for this is explained on page 183 of the LOC. Graendal mentions having already visiting the Great Lord, “Only she herself knew that she made her own journey to Shayol Ghul and down to the lake of fire. . . she would sow chaos till the harvest made Demandred’s lungs explode.” The Great Lord knew that both Rhavin and Asmodean were dead because Graendal told him (By the way, she knew that Asmodean was dead because she killed him).

As far a Slayer is concerned, his murders are marker by violent massacres, not by missing people. Also, not all incompetents are killed by Slayer, especially not Chosen. Both Lanfear/Cyndane and Moghedien come to mind, Moghedien and probably Lanfear/Cyndane were freed from their captivity, not killed by Slayer. Can you indicate another Chosen that Slayer has killed?

Slayer, just outside the Pantry, with the Daggers

Posted by Nevman on 17.04.01 00:00
I disagree with that. Although I must admit that Slayer going after all the renegades is pretty shaky when thinking about Moghedien. But Lanfear had it spread around that Asmodean turn to the light of his own accord. The DO probably knows that his link to Asmodean had been severed. Without Lanfear’s knowledge of what really happened, the DO would most likely think that Asmodean turned to the light, this is a _very_ grave offence in the DO’s eyes, punishable by death.

And the mind traps didn’t appear until ACOS. Moghedien wasn’t released until the very end of LOC. How can you say for sure that the mind traps were even around until the end of LOC? Moridin certainly wasn’t until half way through LOC and wasn’t known to us properly until ACOS.

And that quote you were referring to:

LOC, Prologue, p5.
“Another point pricked him. The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he.”

Where does it imply that the DO knows how Asmodean died? Surely if he did, Demandred would have thought ‘The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin _and Asmodean_ had died’. The DO only seems to know more about what happened to Asmodean, not how he died.

As for Lanfear and Moghedien, we don’t know what happened to Lanfear. She might have died or been rescued. Either way, there was no order about not killing Rand when she tried. And Moghedien, she might just have had the _fortune_ to have been in captivity while a mind trap was found. Plus she didn’t exactly go along with it willingly like Asmodean, she had an a’dam around her neck the while time.

The DO obviously can’t bring back people that have been dead for a while. With no mind traps to be found at the time, Asmodean was killed. Now it’s just too late. As RJ said, he’s “road kill”, “a cat that tried to cross the tracks and didn't quite make it.”. The DO just doesn’t like traitors!

Gauntlets are fun!

Posted by Vercingetorix on 17.04.01 00:00
>But if you don’t think Asmodean was Balefired, doesn’t it destroy the point of the argument? Anything could have killed him then as long as it was quick. But anyway . . .
You don’t think a dagger could kill instantaneously? OK then, I can’t see any way to convince you of that (I just believe it can) but with no body or blood found, Slayer could have taken him into TAR as he stabbed him. This would cut off any extra sound and kill him, so giving the effect of instantaneous death, words hanging in the air. Is this any easier to believe?

I just am not sure if he was balefired. Perhaps he was. but I don't think Slayer could pull him into TAR. I always inagined as he just kind fo steps in and out of TAR, you know, "out of thin air," and that he doesn't open a portal or anything. If that were the case I really don't think he could snatch anyone and physically haul them off into TAR. Even if the person was dead. At least that's how I always viewed it. We don't really know, so it's really hard to debate it.

>Distance, um, I’m most used to arguing this point from the point of view of someone that believed that Graendal stayed close to the fountain, gating out in front of Asmodean. But anyway. Asmodean “drifted away from Mat and Aviendha”, so walking slowly. We are hearing his thoughts as he walks, and they aren’t that long or many, so I think he didn’t walk far. He was looking for the pantry, but hadn’t found it. So nothing can really be gained from that. I suppose in the end though not much is really said on how far he goes.

True.

>But you do have to wonder why he didn’t try to defend himself. He may have been too weak to challenge Rand, but he survived an attack by trollocs. I therefore suggest that the reason is he was afraid Rand would sense it, an ingrained fear so instinct didn’t overcome it. If he was afraid to channel, then they must have been fairly close to Rand or his quarters. And Rand is looking down at Mat and Aviendha though a window, so she must have been as close unless Asmodean went upstairs to find a pantry. Now Aviendha is strong in the OP, one of the strongest four in the White Tower (I know she isn’t part of the WT ) and strength plays a big part in how far someone can sense the use of the OP. She is also a quick study, which also has a strong correlation with Strength. Therefore, with Rand being able to sense as far as he can, and afraid that the Asha’man might sense him if he was much closer to them in WH when he visits Cairhien (he was about half the city away I think, and a palace is a lot smaller than a city) then it shouldn’t be too unreasonable to presume that they would have sensed the large amounts being channeled even if they weren’t ‘looking’ for it.

Remember when belal was killed? Moiraine shouted something, he turned around, and she frapped him? He didn't really hvae time to do anything, and he certainly could have. I think it's more of a timing thing then a skill thing. plus if whoever channeled inverted the weaves Aviendha would not have detected them anyway.

>But in the prologue of TGH, Ishamael (At least I'm pretty sure it was him) showed all the Darkfriends an image of Rand, Perrin and Mat. So the Forsaken might . . . no, you'll probably disagree with that one. But how many people do you know that can step out of thin air without channeling? It wouldn't have taken a genius to work out who it was, especially if he was brandishing a dagger or two at the same time.

See above

>As for obvious, at the time of publishing RJ said that the majority of letters he got were wrong. We're still arguing four books later, so it can't be _that_ obvious. But as an argument - why would Graendal be there? They had been taunting him on Sammael's behalf for ages, before he even got out of the waste. Do you really believe that Graendal would have spent that much time waiting round with Rahvin? It must have been weeks between the first attack and the time Rand attacked Rahvin, and there is no way that Graendal was with Rahvin the whole time. For a start they don't trust each other enough, plus Graendal loves her 'servants' too much to be away from them that long.

>And did anything happen in POD to help with this? I can’t remember it if it did. Everything you’ve said so far happened in LOC and can be used just as easily to show that Sammael didn’t do it and Graendal didn’t know what she was talking about as it can to promote Graendal.

It's not that something happened in pod. It was after POD when the question was asked, meaning that stuff in LOC through POD would help, just not which book. And since RJ just killed Asmodean, the next book would be a good one to give more hints, hence why most of the quotes are from LOC.

>And I fail to see the significance of Graendal going to SL a couple of times before Demandred told them of the DO's plans. The DO wasn't there each time as far as I recall, so she couldn't have found out about Asmodean that way, if that is what you're getting at. But she must have eyes and ears with Rand if she knew about Lanfear’s disappearance, and so she would also know about Asmodean's disappearance. She then presumed that they were both dead. And Sammael’s rage is all very well, but this is still LOC. It doesn’t help separate the two during TFOH.

No no no no, what I am trying to say is that Graendal went own to Shayul Ghul and was all but promised to be naeblis. The only thing that could possibly have warrented that was killing Asmodean.

>You're right about Moghedien though, at least the first time. But she also said it again to Sammael when he said he had been named Nae'blis, and said it with even more conviction.
LOC, chapter 23, “To Understand A Message”. p499.
“Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be too.”
That is the one I base my claim on, she is not in control of the conversation like last time.

Ahhh, good point.

>My main argument against Graendal though is that she isn’t obvious (rather like your one against Slayer) because at the end of TFOH Sammael is just as likely to have been there and done it as Graendal. Two channelers, both have someone who could sense them and they can’t be told apart without something from a later book. If you could convince me that Sammael definitely couldn’t have been there then you’ll have me almost convinced it was Graendal. But as I see it, if Graendal was there, so was Sammael. And if he was there, there is no way to say which one did it, which equals not obvious.

Hmmmm, well, I am maintaining that Sammael was waiting in Illian because he was expecting to be attacked after what's her name was sent to kill mat. That's why he wasn't there, because he was waiting in Illian.

>If RJ thought it was obvious, as he does, he could have been providing clues by crossing off suspects. He didn’t want to paint a big sign saying ‘This person did it’, so he could have. At this point though, 8 years or so after it happened, he could have decided it was about time he gave a bigger hint.
And as for the arrow wound, what about the Black Ajah? Or, Asmodean is a very important target, the DO might have ordered Slayer to do it anyway, he could have just had a bandage around his chest at the time.
But if I can use his appearance in WH (Yes, not obvious, but the truth non the less, so does show that it probably happened, making it look more likely, if not more obvious) Slayer wasn’t wounded then, so probably _was_ healed.

Ummm, healed by the end of FOH? MAYBE. Who knows.

>If you want to get into a debate about what ‘all’ RJ meant, we might as well debate RJ’s definition of ‘obvious’. Does he mean obvious to everyone, obvious to people with an IQ of 170, obvious to people who can read minds or just obvious to people who already know how the series is going to end?! Or we could do the same for any number of things. Aan’allein believed that RJ meant Asmodean had heard of Slayer. He was there, he heard the tone and expression RJ put into those words. We weren’t. I’m pretty sure Aan’allein thinks Graendal did it, so he wouldn’t have been biased.

Good point

>I think that that covers everything you brought up, your turn again!

>Lol, these responses are getting longer and longer!

It seems that neither of us are going to be able to fully convince the other exactly what happened. And with some of the stuff going on on the board I am going to have to reread the books and see what this whoe Lews therin did it nonsense is.




Vercingetorix

Theory Post Admin

I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck. Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.

lol

Posted by Nevman on 21.04.01 00:00
Oh no, not the ‘LTT took over Rand’s body and killed Asmodean without Rand knowing’! RJ has said that Rand didn’t do it, and even without that I don’t see how there could possibly be anything to support it. Rand was watching Mat and Aviendha from a window, then talking with Bashere, it doesn’t leave much time for it.

I also didn’t and don’t think Slayer opens a portal between TAR and the Real world, he just steps out of one and into the other. But I don’t see why what he’s holding won’t go with him. His clothes etc do, and without a opening around him, he must take everything he’s touching.

Inverted weaves weren’t known to the reader until later, so I don’t see how a Forsaken could have used them and still be obvious.

I read that chapter with Graendal and Sammael again, and you were right about Graendal. I must have been thinking of Mesaana. She went, seeing only Shaidar Haran, but not the DO. I can see your point though about her being all but promised the title. It doesn’t say when she went though. She might have also gone after Demandred, like Mesaana. I wonder why the DO didn’t speak to Mesaana . . .

I got the impression in that scene with Mat and Melindhra that she tried to kill him when he told her that Rand was aiming at Caemlyn and Rahvin next, because of Morgase. At least she attacked him right after he told her by accident that that was what was happening. But if he was waiting for an attack, why would Graendal still be with Rahvin? If Rahvin was expecting an attack, why would Sammael not be there? If Rahvin wasn’t, why would Graendal be there? Sammael was not afraid to leave his city for a while. He did so when planning the whole thing, and he did again when meeting with Graendal in LOC. I just find it very hard to see why Graendal would be with Rahvin without Sammael, Graendal doesn’t trust Rahvin, so is unlikely to have stayed there while Rand cooled off even if she did go.

But I agree with your last comment though, I doubt either of us will manage to convince the other.

How does this sound as a compromise, it’s generally what gets suggested in the end of this discussion on the forum I visit. What if Graendal ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean? It would then pose no risk to herself, it explains the possibility of her knowing and of the DO knowing. Plus it gets round the argument of no channelers felt.

A good compromise...

Posted by Vercingetorix on 23.04.01 00:00
...leaves everyone unhappy. Personally I don't think there is anyway Slayer could have done it, no matter who sent him. The only reason the LTT theory intrigued me was because Rand had been drinking wine and then Asmodean was looking for some wine. But as I am thinking about it at this very late hour maybe it WAS Lanfear. Hmmm...soon, I might be changing my stance to "I don't care anymore," I think that is the best thing to do. Alright, from here on out, except concerning questions about my question to RJ in the CNN chat on December 12, 2000, I now have an official "I don't care" stance on who killed Asmodean. Finally, some peace and quiet around here.


Vercingetorix

Theory Post Admin

I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck. Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.

My Thoughts

Posted by Tsallak on 24.04.01 00:00
I won't be back for this one, but I may as well chime in with my own thoughts:

1) Asmodean's death was described almost exactly like Be'lal's. That suggests balefire.

2) The "Kill Rand" plot involved Rahvin, Lanfear, Sammael and Graendal. Lanfear became indisposed, and Rahvin died. That leaves Sammael and Graendal.

3) Asmodean feels a chill on his way to the wine cellar. He would feel the amount of Saidin being channeled, but Saidar leaves men with a chill.

Obviously, I think it's Graendal.

new one

Posted by betrayerofhope77 on 20.05.01 14:42
It was the one legged man on the grassy knole.


Is This A Joke?

Posted by Green Gaidin on 20.07.01 05:22
Every body pay attention: This is my impression of Robert Jordan reading this post/resopnse: *ahem*:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Ahahahahahahahahaha. Hehehehehehahahahahaha. Hohohohoho!(wipes a tear from his eye) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!HAHA! FUNNY! HAHAHAHAHAHA! I HAVEN'T LAUGHED THIS HARD SINCE SOMEONE SUGGESTED MOIRAINE WAS DEAD! MOIRAINE? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Thank you.


Green Gaidin,Ash'aman, he's your neighborhood badass man!


Gingers: disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.

W.A.S.T.E.

A point regarding the original theory

Posted by netweaver on 20.08.01 11:40
It is suggested that Slayer would have killed asmodean by order of the Dark One. Asmodean died quickly, and I am sure that the Dark One would order a lengthy, painful death to one who (in his mind) is a traitor.



~netweaver~

it's so obvious

Posted by Simply Twisted on 21.10.01 01:24
[Asmodean] pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him. [TFOH: 56, Glowing Embers, 682]

Notice Asmodean says "You?"

He was wondering why Lan would have come back, but it wasn't Lan it was Isam. And we know from everyone who has seen him to this point thinks he could be Lan's twin.

Then he says "No!" as Isam snatches Asmodean into TAR and shuts his doorway.