Posted by Paul on 21.01.01 00:00

I've come up with a theory about the Ogier. It started out as a possible link between the Longing and the taint on saidin, and has evolved a bit (especially when I looked at Mashardaman's theory "Ogier and the One Power").

First of all, consider the facts we know about the Longing:

1) It started during the Breaking. Before, Ogier were able to leave their stedding at will for any length of time.

2) It affects different Ogier differently - specifically, it appears to affect some Ogier much quicker than others.

3) It goes away as soon as the stedding is entered, but any ill effects caused by it remain. (For example, the Ogier who remained with the Sea Folk for ten years - Dalar - was forced to walk with the aid of a stick on returning to the stedding).

These three points hint at the possibility that Ogier are somehow linked to saidin, and that the Longing is the taint's effect - compare point 2 with how the taint affects male channelers, and point 3 with how the madness/rotting sickness is arrested, but not cured, once the link to saidin is severed.

This would also lead to the interesting possibility that should such a thing as an Ogier Darkfriend exist, they might be immune to the Longing.

Now for some more Ogier facts:

4) Ogier have several talents - the eldest of Stedding Tsofu can sense ta'veren. Loial, of course, can Treesing (and can possibly sense ta'veren also - recall in The Eye of the World how he suddenly announces that Rand, Mat and Perrin are all ta'veren, before Moiraine had worked it out.) Mashardaman's theory mentioned their massive skill in stonework, and there is the Ogier sensitivity to the mood of a place.

5) Ogier are very long-lived compared to the average human - this is perhaps just a species trait, but consider that some of the Kin have reached 400 years old, and Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends often reached that age and much more.

Now, as there is the possibility that Ogier are linked to saidin, might they not also be linked to saidar as well? Ogier certainly predate the Breaking of the World, and so they existed in a time when the two halves of the Power were used together for many things. Furthermore, I'd guess that the entire species may even be a genetic construct (such as the Nym) from the Age of Legends, not only created with the aid of the Power, but also designed to use it in certain ways - just as Aes Sedai could be likened to an angreal (can concentrate the Power and use it for many things), maybe Ogier can be likened to a kind of organic Ter'angreal - built to perform specific tasks with the Power (Treesinging and so on) but also be living, breathing creatures. Perhaps the whole race started as an Age of Legends experiment to determine whether a new life form could be created that could use the Power.

The only thing I'm looking for an explanation for is the stedding themselves. There's evidence that they are shields of some sort (they cannot be entered in Tel'aran'rhiod, just as the shield around Rhuidean prevented access) but not what they shield against (except the One Power). One possibility is that they didn't always exist, but were set up as shields against the Shadow at some point during the Collapse, but I guess that this is one thing we'll never find out about for sure.

wotmania says: Well, first the part of the theory I have a problem with - the Ogier were definitely not created during the Age of Legends. It says pretty clearly in The Guide that the Ogier are a natural species (unlike the Nym or the Trollocs). Beside that point, though, I like some of the parallels between the Longing and taint on saidin. It would be interesting if the Ogier have some kind of link to the Power which we have not truly seen yet... I do not know if we will ever learn more about this, but it is certainly an interesting topic to discuss.



Posted by Your.Master on 07.05.01 21:05
The guide says the Ogier predate the Nym etc. It does not say they were not constructs, it in fact implies that they were constructs of if not the power, then genetic engineering.


across the sea

Posted by RedRigger4567 on 05.06.01 10:10
what about the sechecian<SP> ogier they do not seem to be affected by the longing. RJ may have been forgetting about that, but i dont think so. so maybe something is wrong or different with randland's ogier.

To RedRigger4567

Posted by Rathan on 17.06.01 03:15
It's spelled Seanchan.



Posted by mjasghar on 27.06.01 14:22
... the Seanchan Ogier are coping by becoming very grim. The Deathwatch Ogier are in no way like Loial, except when he fights Shdwspwn.
Those Ogier may have some ter'angral that helps them also.
Remember the Ogier wandered over the whole world in the Breaking, so the Longing must have come to all of them.
Finally, the Seanchan must have found some stedding by now? My bet is Mat and Loial will meet again and Tuon will try to act as if she owns Loial / some bother about Seanchan Ogier will come up.

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Tree singing

Posted by Greyslayer on 09.07.01 00:33
Hey nice theory.

Sorry I have to disagree with one point. Treesinging is not neccesarily connected to the one power. We see through Rand's Aiel ancestors when Rand goes to Rhuidean, that the Aiel sang with the Ogier at Spring & there seemed to be little differentiation between regular aiel & aiel with the power. Surely they couldn't have missed people who could channel in those days. It is described as just a talent.

Perhaps the aiel work through the ogier, but there is no evidence that there are flows working. Rand & Moirane have watched Loial sing to the GreenMan's tree & at other times & there has been no indication that flows of the Power were in use.

But good idea with the rest of it!

Reply to Treesinging

Posted by Bert_Fegg on 28.08.01 14:47
Thanks! (It's my theory, btw - decided to change the online name due to 'Paul' being more than a tad boring)

Now I reread it (it's a while since I submitted it) I can definitely spot a couple of things up with it ... but I'll defend the treesinging point.

1) Loial is male. If he's got any link to the power, it's probably a reasonable assumption to make that he'd be using saidin in some respect. Moiraine would not see anything.

2) Which of course gives the question "Aha! But Rand must see something!" I can think of a couple of reasons why he might not. Firstly, he's only just become aware of the fact that he can channel at this point (singing to the Green Man's tree) - he might not be able to determine other connections to saidin. It's certainly similar for female channelers - it's usually a little while before they see the aura around others channeling saidar. Of course, he does see these 'cords' - one to Aginor and the other to Ishamael/Ba'alzamon, but one could argue that this is to do with the link to the Eye of the World/being in Tel'aran'rhiod (I know! I'm grasping!)
Secondly - the power passing through Ogier may simply be inverted, making it invisible to all.

As I said, though, it's a whole lot of conjecture. It's just as easily argued that it's nothing to do with the One Power. The only person who knows for sure is Mr Jordan, and I bet you he ain't ever tellin'!

(Rathan - it's spelled 'definitely' )


Posted by Mõ®Îdïn GåïdÏn on 08.10.01 22:45
The Seanchan Ogier have a bargain with the Empress (may she live for ever) and if other theories are to be beleived then the crystal throne may have influenced them so that they have to follow the Empress'wishes (may she live for ever). this conflict might be the source of the grimness. Just a thought.

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More than a little insane
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Posted by thinker on 01.01.02 15:30
wasn't they natural???

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Talent with no connections to the One Power

Posted by xxdec21xx on 04.01.02 20:16
Ogier treesinging doesnt have anything to do with the one power. Just like Min and her viewings and Perrin and the wolves. Both kinds of things had been studied in the White Tower and niether was found to have a link to the one Power. Also I have a thought that the fact that there is no way to channel in or into a stedding so what if because of this unknown source that stops the one power my idea is that, that stops the "spark" from being brought into the ogier and inturn makes it so that the ogier cant channel. Just an idea but i think its pretty good.

Comment to the last post.

Posted by proxima on 07.02.02 16:16
I totally agree. I am quite certain that the White Tower, especially the Brown Ajha wold have discorvered the connection betwen these talentes and the Scource. Even if they just used saidin or used some other obscure form of the Scource. At least Elayne seems quite confident that she can detect *any* angreal or ter'angreal, even those made for men.

(I even suspect the Red Ajah of knowing how to detct men channeling... This is of course pure speculation.)



Posted by donutz324 on 02.04.02 18:26
I'm beleiving that the Ogier are elementals. What I mean by this is that they are imbued with the power (both sides) but don't ever consiously touch it. They are an ancient race... Much like the Elves from other books, or the Green man from this series. As such they are, more or less, a part of the sources. Being able to use it without actually channelling (tree singing, growing The Ways, seeing the Ta'veren). This may also be the reason for their long lives.

...Also have to agree that The Longing that they get is probably due to the Taint.

This is

Posted by The Prophet on 14.07.03 19:33
the dumbest theory that I've ever read. If the Ogier could use the TS and use it undistilled then they would use both sides of it. They only use the energy around them and from the source and don't channel it. The Seanchan Ogier aren't special at all. Loials been outside his stedding for what? 10 years or so? The Seanchan Ogier just come out when needed and can stay out for long periods of time. The only reason that they can still survive the longing while in the Westlands (I hate it when people call it "Randlan" is because they have only been out for maybe 2-3 years tops.

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Posted by The_Dragon_Reborn_314 on 24.08.03 15:03
maybe steedings had a sheild to the taint on saidin and ogier have an inborn talent but do not now how to use saidin
also now with the taint destroyed or suposibly destroyed would the longings be gone?
i think maybe the taint causes the longings so maybe....

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