Taimandred Debunked in Winter's Heart

Posted by Taim's Tavern Wench on 07.01.01 00:00

Mazrim Taim is not Demandred!! In the climax of Winter's Heart, Demandred's point of view is used to depict his meeting with a ring of Aes Sedai and Asha'man. We are finally provided irrevocable proof that Demandred was never, is not, and will most likely never become Mazrim Taim due to the telling thoughts of the Forsaken as the two do battle.

First, he sees a baldheaded old man limping through the trees and immediately considers him both decrepit and no threat whatsoever, completely failing to even recognize a man Taim knows well - Damer. He is then shocked by the strength and speed of Damer's attack, as well as the attack itself. If he had been Taim, he would have known full well the extent and tactics of all Asha'man including Damer, having trained them himself.

Considering that this is told from Demandred's point of view, he would have to be even crazier than Rand or doing a really good impression of Sybil to still be Mazrim Taim after this revelation.

wotmania says: I was extremely happy when I read that specific scene of Winter's Heart. Anyone who has been coming here for a while knows that I never believed the whole Taimandred theory, so I was a happy camper by the end of Winter's Heart. I definitely agree, it would appear that Taimandred is dead!


Taim=Demandred =)

Posted by TheStrider on 29.03.01 00:00
Well hey, guess what,Taim is Demandred. The scene takes place at dusk just before night sets I believe. Obviously, it would be hard to make someone out that is say... 100 yards away. He obviously isn't going to recognize somebody that far away. And, how would he recognize the colors of the Asha'men's clothing? He looks at the man and says, Gee Golly Aunt Bee, that an Asha'man. Well, he doesn't say it exactly like that but he does say that it is an Asha'man. He must be use to seeing the clothing warn by the Asha'men. He obviously would know what the Asha'men are because he is a forsaken and he knows these kind of things but would he know what the clothes look like? And finally, on one of the last pages in the last chpater, Demandred makes a comment about Generals leading their soldiers and not fighting against them. I don't have book with me cuz i am at school but I will follow-up with another post with the exact statement by Demandred. Take that anti-Taimers.

And take that, too!

Posted by Whitefire on 01.04.01 00:00
Where do the books say that Taim knows Damer so well? When Rand picks who should go with him after Dumai's Wells, Damer is still a Dedicated. And, moreover, he does not encounter Taim after this point.
I admit the scene surprised me... but after some thinking, I came to the conclusion that nothing really has changed. JR is just toying with us a little. Mr. J., very bad of you, if true!

Implications of Taimandred Debunking?

Posted by DukeDr on 07.04.01 00:00
Having just re-read the now-infamous Demandred passage, I'd have to say that the Taim theory looks rather dubious (and this is coming from a former believer). When asked about a lot of the mysteries --Asmo's death, eg.-- that frustrate readers of this series, RJ always talks about how things should be "intuitively obvious" to reasonable observers. That said, the claims that Demandred could have known Damer and not recognized him are silly, because they defy the intuition of the passage. He has time to stop and observe them in some detail (the woman, "beautiful in a wild way"), consider whether or not to kill them, and finally to watch Damer's head turn toward him, just before the Asha'man's attack. Demandred talks like a man who feels that he has a clear view of the group (enhanced by the power?), yet doubts that Damer "could see very far." The distance between them, then, doesn't seem all that tremendous, at least with regard to Dem.'s abilities. The time he has to look at them is too long, his level of description too precise to be unable to recognize them. Damer looks right at him --wouldn't Taim recognize him then at the least?

What hasn't been answered is this: what the heck was Demmy cackling about at the end of LoC if he isn't Taim? It seemed so clear that it was the Tower kidnapping and subsequent appearance of the Asha'man at Dumai's Wells. Now that Dem probably isn't Taim, what the heck was going on in LoC?

Just some info from WH

Posted by Aaron on 26.04.01 00:00
The fight DOES NOT take place near dusk. The scene where Demandred takes place like this. Chapter: "With the Choedan Kal" page 644-645 "A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning.....,but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far......He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight along-side the men they commanded!" Now if he was close enough to think the man was decrepit and that the women are beautiful I would think that he would be able to recognize somebody he had been around before. He was at Dumi's Wells when Damer was picked by Rand or by him (can't remember). Also, if he was Taim wouldn't he know that there are old men in the Black Tower and that Rand had picked one to stay with him. Considering the time and place would not dismiss someone that even closesly resembles that description. The comment about being a general is just saying that he is not used to being in the middle of a battle but directing it. The prove about the time of day comes from Osan'gar. page 456 "He was not good at judging time by the sun, but it was obviously still short of noon.


Posted by Lost_Arts on 22.05.01 15:48

Taim isn't Demandred for a few reasons I can think of.

1) The Forsaken act like Predators each holing up in a specific kingdom, meaning that they would not appreciate competition meaning that two would never try to claim the same area, they would robably end up killing one another.
This leaves one to believe that because Osan'gar was the Forsaken in the Black Tower, Taim wouldn't have allowed him inside the place even for his basic training. They all fight amongst themselves to much. Because of this I think Taim may not be Demandred but still could be promoted at a later date to be one of the new Forsaken (because face it they need to do more recruiting think about they've lost maost of their male members some permeantly), and Taim may be able to acend to that type of power.

2) Taim and Demandred don't seem to know about each others plans. I mean why order someone something twice it's a futile waste of effort, but i doubt Demandred could stand the repeatition.

3) Taim has lead men he commanded his dragonsworn in Saldaea he fought alongside them and I doubt he is afraid of a straight up fight, now in WH demandred seems cowardly and runs away something so very untiamish.

Taimandred can't be dead. He was never alive.

Posted by Call_me_Tim on 30.05.01 15:45
Damer Flinn was the very first candidate tested at the Black Tower. On a later visit by Rand, we see Flinn blowing up a rock and nearly getting his own head taken off because he forgot to weave a shield against the debris.

At Dumai's Wells, Flinn is among those brought by Taim. He is also one of the Dedicated chosen by Rand to stay as his bodyguard, something Taim would take note of.

After the attack at Cairhien, Rand tells Taim to add seven names to his list of deserters. Gedwyn, Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, Flinn, Narishma, and Hopwil. And tells him he wants Dashiva's head on the traitor's tree the next time he visits the Black Tower. Only Rand new that Flinn, Narishma and Hopwil were not truly deserters.

Now how could Taim not know Flinn well enough to recognize him? Sorry, it fails the smell test.

Going back to the attack of the renegade Asha'man, they were told to kill Rand by Taim, Demandred, and Moridin all separately, according to Kisman's POV after running from Rand in Far Madding.

Lastly, Demandred's comments about not fighting alongside his men as a general. When Taim was captured, it was during a melee when he got knocked from his horse.

Taim may very well be a puppet of a Forsaken, and if so my money is on Mesaana, but he isn't Demandred.


Call me Tim

Right on Tim!

Posted by Rathan on 20.06.01 02:07
Good Job, Call_Me_Tim, my thoughts (almost) exactly.


The POW in WH isn´t enough evidence.

Posted by madmax on 31.07.01 05:54
A lot of people seems to think that Demandreds POW in proves that he isn´t Taim. But what most people fail to see is that it eliminates every other candidate as well. What we do know from the meeting of the Chosen is that Demandred and Osan'gar are responsible for watching Rand, therefore they must be somewhere close to him. Whoever Demandred is hiding as or even if he isn´t hiding at all, he should be close enough to Rand to recognise one of his personal Asha'man if he gets a good look at him. So that he doesn´t recognise flinn isn´t enough to kill the Demandred theory. Especially as RJ apperantly has said that we now should be able to figure out where every Chosen is hiding, and to my knowledge no one has been able to produce another credible theory about where Demandred is.



Posted by ragond on 09.09.01 21:55
duh! how much evidence does RJ give to point to where the forsaken are? just BARELY enough, most especially in these later books. In PoD when attaking the Seanchan Weiramon is unstained when mud is on everyone else, Rand wonders how he does this. also, which forsaken was it that said something like... events in the south have his name all over them... something like that. ok people in the south are... Tearin high lords, Illian council (did we ever get hard evidence that the king of Illian was killed by Samael?), Ebou Dar(no men there), and then Tarabon(nothing pointing there), there also are the Whitecloaks, but we havent seen hide nor tail of(i am betting $'s we see them in next book) it could be the whitecloak leader, but shouldnt Galad have a handle on that?

my 2 cents

Rand will lose a hand and be a beggar.
Logain will kill Taim, after Rand is "killed".
Mat will save Egwene from the headsmen.
Cadsuane will teach the Asha'man the taint isn't cleansend.

May Taimandred live for ever

Posted by Phoenix on 14.11.01 11:33
If Demandred isn't taim, who is?? It must be a forsaken. Noone else could be that strong in the one power.

Wielder of Manshima
Killer of Chat

"knäböj inför hans nåd draken. Eller era knän kommer att böjas åt er." - Mazrim Taim in the Swedish version of LoC

Gee, Phoenix...who could Taim possibly be?

Posted by Hentai Guy on 20.01.02 01:07
Could it be...TAIM?!?!?! (NOTE: Taim's name is to be said with the same voice as Dana Carvey's Church Lady from SNL) I've always thought of myself as being rather arbitrary when it came to Taimandred, I could see it going either way. But it was prettymuch spelled out in Winter's Heart...if it had been any more obvious Mr. Jorden would be wielding the fact like a blunt instrument. He (RJ) never really went in for being uber-direct in things, he rare says anything utterly straight out...he doesn't like things to be too obvious, it makes for shoddy writing.

Methinks some people really need to admit they're wrong and move on...hell, some of my favorite and personal theories have been sunk faster than a Polish battleship, you live with it and move on.


PS I would like to extend my apologies to any members of the Polish Navy that have ever been lost in the sinking of one of their fine war vessels, as well as their friends and relations.

Hi! I'm Mat! I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...



Posted by Bob the Happy Vampire on 09.02.02 00:54
Even with all the evidence each way i think it is all a bunch of useless blabber(but we all have to get our kicks somehow) . Maybe jordan is just jerkin our chains, or hes just so much smarter than all us that he thinks we would be able to figure it all out.

the evidence:
F=for taimadred

A---dem sees them though the trees and reconizes there features pretty well
F---however, they are "sheltered behind a rough grey trunk"
F---he has no clue who they are and since he isnt expecting flinn why would he recognize him in full daylight, senses augmented by saidin, but partly behind a tree. <-people often dont see what theyre not looking for-> even if he is an 'omnipotent' forsaken
F---once flinn points and attacks dem realizes the obvious(the old man is ashaman) but in his surprise and sudden defense againt Flinns attack he doesnt recognize the face(imagine how many peeps the forsaken have known in their long ass lifetimes)
F---"He was a general, but generals didnt have to fight alongside the men they commanded!" (notice the !) i take this to mean that dem realizes he's fighting "alongside" the man he commands= the ashaman. he knows that not all ashaman are "evil" like him and some are fighting for Rand

im for taimadred

a few more thoughts:

-Read the paragraph again when dem first sees flinn how long would it really take to go through those brief thoughts and any man will recognize a "stunning" woman and he then wouldnt be lookin at the old man

-The page telling that it's noon is p646 not p456 and if dem just meant being in the battle instead of commanding he would have said it, not the way he did.

-1)the forsaken are only predators when they are equal. aginor/dashiva is definitly below in rank than Dem, and if the DO told them to man the BT together theyd do it.
2)when taim and Dem give the order to kill rand (you know, that stuff that happened at the end of book they were making sure they got that very important order across, not a waste of time
3)the original taim and Taimadred might not be the same man
if dem killed the original taim when he 'escaped' he may have never had a battle. there was, as i remember, a vagueness or discrepency in how taim went from being held by Aes sedai to appearing in Caemlyn before rand

thats it i think. any i too tired

**you know im right**

<<<<Bob, the Happy Vampire

It still could be..

Posted by Dardis on 17.10.02 08:25
It obvious that while wandering around, Demandred was hit on the head by some exploding rubble and developed partial Amnesia... okay maybe not, but how about while using Mask of Mirrors to pretend to be Taim, Demandred's eyes get a little messed up and... err... Maybe Damer is really Lanfear using Mask of Mirrors....

Humm... There must be a reason ! There must ! Taimandred is Immortal !!!

Seriously, I think RJ originally planed Taim to be Demandred, but everyone twigged so fast, he reorganised. It could explain why Demandred hasn't appeared as anyone definate yet.

It is one of the things Lini is for, taking the blame. She usualy deserves it even if I don't know how.

Demandred & Damer

Posted by imcamp on 07.07.08 14:07
So I have been reading a fair number of comments stating that Demandred cannot be Taim. The primary argument being presented for this statement is based on Demandred's encounter with Damer during the battle surrounding the event of Rand cleansing Saidin.

Demandred is shocked by the power and speed of the old man's attack. This is often seen as proof that D cannot be Taim, as Taim would have trained Damer. However, didn't Rand observe that while female channelers grew gradually and slowly with the power, males seemed to "jump" in power and ability. Could this be an explanation as to why Demandred was surprised at the old man's abilities?